Best oil for our strokers

[Exos]

With all the discussions about ZDDP, cam failures, GM EOS, etc., let me add yet another point to argue about. I found this while browsing the NAPA website : Liquimoly MOS2 engine oil, from Germany, containing moly.

http://www.liqui-moly.com/liquimoly/pro ... _1091.html

Could it be our best bet for our engines for break-in (with break-in additive like EOS) and after break-in?

[cavaliers1323]

MOS2, molybdenum disulfide, is NOT oil soluble. It will fall out of suspension when the oil sits. Some will argue this is not a problem, because when you start your motor it will "mix" it up. However upon tear-down many have found that MOS2 collects in corners etc. Most blenders have moved away from MOS2 to MoDTC or Moly DibutylDTC another form of moly that IS oil soluble. There is only one additive I am aware of that contains MoDTC (Mugen MT-105), however it is pretty expensive. Also from what I understand high moly is NOT good for break-in (although new hondas factory fill has a nice shot of moly and there motors have excellent wear numbers). High ZDDP for break-in is good for cams, however its not as good for piston rings its all about balance. There are other anti-wear anti-scuff EP additives that are effective, such as boron, antimony, etc. That being said I would not use lubro-moly's (or liqui-moly whatever they are going by these days) additive, however I'm not sure what type of moly they use in the actual oils. For break-in many people I have talked to have had luck with Redlines break-in add, also I think royal purples oil looks promising yet I have not talked to anyone that has used it.

[SilverXJ]

I'm probably going to go with Joe Gibb's for break in oil for teh first 20 minutes of cam break in.. I haven't figured out what to use for the first 1000 miles or so..

[jsawduste]

MOS2, molybdenum disulfide, is NOT oil soluble. It will fall out of suspension when the oil sits. Some will argue this is not a problem, because when you start your motor it will "mix" it up. However upon tear-down many have found that MOS2 collects in corners etc. Most blenders have moved away from MOS2 to MoDTC or Moly DibutylDTC another form of moly that IS oil soluble. There is only one additive I am aware of that contains MoDTC (Mugen MT-105), however it is pretty expensive. Also from what I understand high moly is NOT good for break-in (although new hondas factory fill has a nice shot of moly and there motors have excellent wear numbers). High ZDDP for break-in is good for cams, however its not as good for piston rings its all about balance. There are other anti-wear anti-scuff EP additives that are effective, such as boron, antimony, etc. That being said I would not use lubro-moly's (or liqui-moly whatever they are going by these days) additive, however I'm not sure what type of moly they use in the actual oils. For break-in many people I have talked to have had luck with Redlines break-in add, also I think royal purples oil looks promising yet I have not talked to anyone that has used it.

Cavaliers,
again you must be smoking some potent shit. Your comments over the last week on this forum and Pirate have done more to confuse, harm and spread misinformation then any one person I can remember.

You comments on moly, while sounding good, are not in line with most of the worlds best engine manufactures in the world.

The use of moly for engine break in has been well documented in many a high performance engine build sheet. Even in your own explanation above you back pedal again and say that Honda uses it and has had good luck. Again in the above post you state a bunch of facts about moly and then come back and say you are not sure what moly they use. BUT you talked to a bunch of folks that used Redline.

Most any mildly educated person can look on this forum and Pirate and see all the misinformed, backpedaling, hearsay comments you have made.

You may have sent some samples for UOA/VOA into an independent lab. Read a bunch of posts on BITOG (a laughable group of misinformed souls) and maybe did some studying on your own. You are not a lubes expert.

I truly feel sorry for any individual that takes your assessments seriously. You frankly remind me of the professor in school who knows all the words in the text book but has never been exposed to the real world.

If I was you I would post an apology to both forums for having been such an asshole.

Reply as you wish. I no longer wish to waste my time with you or your comments. My only wish is that the special group of people that read these posts (on any forum) read your comments for what they are worth, bullshit.

[dwg86]

OUCH

[cavaliers1323]

I really don't see what is so confusing about what I said. Just because it is over top of your head, doesn't mean other people don't understand it. I'm tired of arguing with you, all you do is stalk my posts and tell me I'm wrong. If you don't believe anything I say just because I said it, thats fine. Please grow up. If you don't agree with what I said point it out and argue your opinion. Its pretty simple. Another example of how you just put words in my mouth. I didn't say *moly* was bad I specifically said HIGH amounts of it are bad. And as I stated the additive is MOS2, and I'm not sure if their oil is as well. That is why I commented on the additive, but not the oil. If you think I have misinformed anyone, please feel free to correct me. I apologize if I have confused anyone, but its you who should apologize for being an asshole.

[jsawduste]

OK I lied, one more post.

From PBB in the same thread of the failed 4.0/I6 (Jeep HC for you search folks)

---Quote (Originally by BillyShaft)---
Since you ask...

BITOG may have some useful information, but it reads like a cult-leaders handbook for Amsoil.
Sorting through the marketing hype is tedious and frankly users of oil don't need to know this much information. Who wants to become a fluids engineer to figure out what fucking oil to run in their junk? Seriously.
All we really need to know is what set of Industry Standards best protects our engines, and then we can find a product that meets or exceeds these standards in independent lab testing. Easy.

DocD makes a short, compelling argument that the ACEA A3 standard is a higher standard than the API standards and that the ACEA A3 standard takes into consideration our old-style flat tappet cams.
DocD isn't selling shit, isn't trying to baffle us with a website full of engineering bullshit and merely points out an efficient way of choosing an oil that will protect our junk.

Every automotive board has 10 or 12 thread-hijackers waiting in the wings to post a shitload of BITOG links at the slightest mention of "oil".
That shit gets old very quickly.

Hope that helps.


I don`t know BillyShaft (the author of the above cut-n-paste from Pirate) but I wish I did.

Thanks guys for letting me rant and rave. Over and out !!

[cavaliers1323]

As I said to him fair enough. I will keep my ramblings to my self. Doc does indeed do an excellent job of making recommendations.I try to go a little more in depth and I guess most people don't care to know. And I really don't care what you think about BITOG, no one tries to sell you anything and there isn't a huge amsoil following anyway. IF you WANT to learn about lubrication/tribology its the best place to.

[Exos]

When I said "one more point to argue about", that's not what I meant/wished....

Anyway, liquimoly is ACEA A3 rated...I think I will use it in my stroker. Of course, I'll use a break-in additive too, for break-in.

I'll also do some searching on aviation oils, as I can order some easily.

[gradon]

I used the Brad Penn SAE-30 break-in oil for the cam break in and the first 600mi(was planning on 500, but waited a day or two after). I use their 10w30 racing oil which is SL rated and has 1300-1400ppm zddp. Before this stroker, I used Mobil 1 10w30 hi-mi, which still seems to be a good synthetic option.

[Alex22]

One thing to keep in mind.... Jeep 4.0 has flat tappet cams with lifters. Honda uses overhead cams, and overhead cams don't need the zinc.

It looks like every company has a break in additive or an oil supplement for flat tappet cams now, even Lucas. I would stick with a true break in oil over an additive. Break in oils have all the additives mixed in from the manufacturer and when a separate bottle is added to modern conventional oil you are relying on the engine to become a blender and mix it for you.

[1bolt]

J and Cav, listen up, please keep your off site bickering to those off sites or to yourselves, this is not an oil forum and it sure as hell isn't Pirate 4x4.

So please cut the Pirate-like BS and especially Pirate derived cut and pastes full of fact-less blustering. Anyone who makes a purchase decision based only on the fact that the product met the bare minimum acceptable performance standard... ANY performance standard, is a fool at best.

Also be careful about throwing insulting crap around about an informative web site when the moderator here has pimped BITOG several times... If you need to know whats in an oil that's the first place you will go.

Seriously choosing an oil solely by what wear standard it passed is moronic... Walmart Supertech oil passes API standards and I wouldn't use that garbage to rinse a dirty oil pan out with.

[amcinstaller]

i always get confused by these threads. while i havent built a high performance engine in my life, almost every vehicle ive had has had at least 150,000 kms (94000 miles for the americans). does this make me an expert? not by any means. but ive always used (here comes the flaming!!) fram filters and pennzoil filters. ive heard and seen people pull apart frams full of crap, and read stories about pennzoil sludge. im not anywhere close to discrediting the people that make these posts. on the other hand, my jeep had 325000 kms (205000 miles) and its whole life had frams and pennzoil. when i pulled the pan to do the rear main seal, it was the cleanest id seen from any motor.

like i said, im not expert, but i think we just need people to step up and say what theyve been running in their engine, and what kind of mileage they have. and no one should be flamed or bashed to the stone age for their choice.

[1bolt]

I hear yah man, if I was going to guess I'd say you're fairly good at getting oil changes done in a reasonable interval... It's the people who let stuff go that get Fram filters bypassing and run into wear problems prematurely. That said Fram is probably the victim of being the king of the hill. The most popular and visible are often the victim of negative perceptions from certain groups of people... And the shear amount of Frams out there surely leads to a disproportionate amount of horror stories and rumors. I've ripped on Frams myself here, though joking, I think that thread had a similar tone as what I've said here... all that hating on Fram is probably all out of proportion to the statistical incidences of failed filters.

The truth is, though I exaggerate, I wouldn't use Supertech. Not because it wont work reasonably in your engine for a short time under fair conditions, but because it has nearly half the additives of oils costing only a few penny's more.

That is why I think using an API (or any minimum standard) as the basis for a purchase decision is foolish. It means you're excepting possibly the absolute bare minimum as adequate for your needs. Even though there might be an oil that far surpassed the same API that only costs a few cents more...

In other words you are saying you're willing to risk getting the worst possible value for your money by letting only the wear standard be your guide, as opposed to looking a little deeper and finding something that may have FAR FAR more value for nearly the same amount of money...

Supertech is a great example... Last time I looked at it oils like Havoline, Pennzoil etc. only cost a little more; but had nearly twice the desirable additives. Wouldn't you rather have twice the expensive anti-wear and cleaning ingredients for 5 or 10 cents more per quart?

[amcinstaller]

yea, youre mostly right. on the jeep, my amc, and a few others, i was good for getting the oil done when it needed to be done. same with the other half's cavlier. i think bottom line, if its a name thats been around racing for years and years, it must be at least somewhat trustworthy. and for the most part, i think the saying you get what you pay for has got to be true here. that being said, how far is the generic oil from pure virgin vegetable oil i wonder??