Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Performance mods and Advanced Stroker discussion.
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Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by 1bolt »

I know I can be long winded; So I'll get to the meat up front and then explain things afterward. I've cobbled together the best info I can find, Preferably measured it myself, and had some help from a few of you. So far I have a simulated bone stock 4.0 that outputs to within 1 hp and 2 ft. lbs torque. Torque peak is right where it should be, and HP peak likewise right where it's supposed to happen.
Image
(If images look jagged then click them, the forum shrinks 800x600 images just a tiny bit which makes things jagged looking on my PC.)
compare to the factory flywheel rating (as nicked off Dino's site): '91-'95 XJ: 190hp at 4750rpm, 225lbft at 3950rpm, redline 5250rpm

As you can see its a lot like the factory rated flywheel output. Dino found that the factory numbers may be a tad conservative and my model may be as well, as my exhaust flows are a bit more restrictive (didn't use a flow pipe). The curves look as they should (also from Dino's site):
Image
Keep in mind that's not a symmetrical graph, and it's scrunched together. hp numbers on right torque on left and they are at different levels. If you adjust the scales to the same size or manually plot out the factory curve over the EAP graphs they are damn near identical. Crazy part is I ran that plot, without actually seeing this factory one until I found it on Dino's web page while writing this. Believe it or not there was no tweaking of EAP parameters to get the torque curves so close.

So next post I'll tweak the exhaust flows (flow them with a flow pipe they should be slightly better CFM) and we'll prove out the model (or find inaccuracies) by bolting on virtual 99+ intakes, 63mm bored TB's, borla headers etc.

Now the long part; I got this far without doing anything funny that is not in line with the real engine. The port flows are real world from my bench (and they happen to agree with other flow bench numbers I've seen and that have been posted here) I didn't have to fudge anything. When I get a few more things tweaked, and confirmed. I will put the engine files up for download probably in this thread. Here's some screen caps to give you an idea of how much input there is. Each area has multiple calculators that take measurements and turn them into coefficients or areas, or CFM etc.. Whatever EAP needs. There are area's for rotating mass, valve train weights, angles etc. Here's the short block menu:
Image
This is one of the most simple menus and there are 4 calculators off it it which all can take multiple inputs or measurements.
Image
The cylinder head menu and intake flow sub menu

Okay so big deal I've got a simulated 4.0... but now the fun part, once you have an accurate stock model then we can throw mods at it and get predictions that should be reliably accurate to within a few % assuming I didn't screw the pooch. 1% to 3% at our power levels translates into 2 to 6 hp and torque. So we can throw combos and cams around and see what sticks and what stinks. Or at least we can if we get realistic looking results from known mods to the 4.0. If virtual bolt ons have believable effects on the graphs, then we can move on to virtual strokers, Virtual cam swaps, Custom intakes and even more radical build possibilities. How about 48" long tube headers with an RV cam and a long individual runner fuel injection intake (for max torque).
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by yuppiexj »

I hate to clutter up a thread with OMG wow but...

Now i see why it's so much more expense than the entry level (desktop dyno, dynosim) offerings.

1Bolt, did I ever send the 91-98 plenum and runner volume measurements?
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by 1bolt »

No but I used slightly less accurate derived numbers. I got plenum vol. by finding the length and cross section of the runners converting that to cc's and then subtracting that from the total liquid measured vol cc's on MadXJ's site. I would still love to get some actual cubic centimeter numbers for an individual runner, and the plenum with all the runners blocked off, and for that matter cc'ing the intake and exhaust ports. actual volume measurements will be more accurate. I will do all of them if necessary at some point.

It can be more accurate, if you compare the numbers at say 3000 RPM's there's about a 6 to 8 hp difference, and the torque curve is a tiny bit shallower in the lower RPM's... mostly these are tuning differnces showing up. Small errors in the lengths of runners, ports, cross sections, and Cam specs (EAP can use cam lobe profiles but most cam makers don't publish specs for ramp rates or actual shape of the lobe, especially not OEM cams). These result in curves that are pretty damn close, but with minor profile variations, areas where the virtual curve dips or raises from the real deal, while still following along the expected curve.

I'm not done reading the 270 page manual, so there are some things I'm depending on my intuitive understanding of that may not be correct. A case in point is, that I had been using a "typical wedge" combustion chamber shape, assuming that the next choice (compact wedge) was a more current design (like LS or Ford Mod shapes) but it turns out the 4.0 chamber fits all the criteria of a compact wedge shape, and the typical wedge selection is better suited to early wedge heads, like "semi-open wedge" Muscle car chambers of the 60's and 70's. AMC's I6 chamber design it turns out is forward thinking, with a well placed spark plug and good double quench pads with decent amount of surface area and matching piston.

Also I suspect I'm a few % off on VE%. (pipe tuning diameters and lengths) due to EAP probably making the stock shitty factory header better than it really is.

I'll try to post some more gory (boring?) details later if I get another break.
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by seanyb505 »

Looking forward to some results! Excellent work btw
Now I can be like all those other awesome people with more than one Jeep in their sig, but now I have to say one of them is sold:(
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I want to have as many Jeeps as children. DD, offroader, drag MJ and another one. 4=4
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by SilverXJ »

Nice work.. and nice software.

However, due to the fact that you are running vista I believe your numbers are incorrect.
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by TurboTom »

I have desktop Dyno and it is useless for turbo's.
Can your program let you just put in boost/intake temp. numbers?
I have only 1 turbo in DD that will make any power below 8000 rpm because there is no place to put in the A/R of the exhuast housing.
Try stock 2001 engine, 14.2 Lbs of boost at 255 Inlet temp. I made 395HP 465Ft/Lbs @ 4500 rpm. Like to see what you get
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by 1bolt »

Yeah at least according to the Mac guy in those ever so witty commercials anyway. :mrgreen:

Tom I need more specs, need your inlet and exhaust A/R, and I might need a compressor map. But I will definitely run you some numbers, Email me back channel.
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by 1bolt »

Okay here's some more gory details, Tom check out the last screen shot. For shits and grins I installed a pre-existing Toyota Supra turbo file and ran the sim.

But first back to the stock 4.0 Here's the Exhaust flows, as I mentioned these are a tad lower than actual due to how i flowed them on the bench they are reasonable for a bad as cast factory exhaust port:
Image
Next up if anyone who is more cam savvy than I am could look at my stock cam specs and tell me if they look right I would appreciate it this is the mid 90's HO cam on Dino Savva's page. Advance and retard had me confounded for a while until I realized that it is installed centerline that determines that number in EAP (upper right corner of screen shot)... This means that that cam is ground 8 degrees retarded. Not INSTALLED 8 degrees retarded, if it was installed 8 degrees retarded EAP would consider that 16*... Like I said though if one of you guys who has an innate mental grasp of cams can read over that and confirm it or tell me that I'm the one that's 8* retarded please do.
Image
Next is exhaust manifolds I simmed the factory HO header by measuring the inside cross section and consider only the initial short pipe to be the primary, then the two longer bigger diameter pipes these run into that curve down to the down pipe I'm calling the collector, inside diameter of them is approximate.
Image

Now for a quick bit of fun I threw in the Toyota Supra's small turbos and found that they seem pretty badass in a 4.0, they were scrolling up 140% VE by 2500 RPM's here's the specs. Tom look those over, each one that has a calculator button next to it will need multiple inputs I will let you know just exactly what they are when I get the chance. Maybe this weekend.
Image
As for the turbo numbers, I didn't touch a thing they got 15psi boost the smaller displacement Supra has smaller turbos than what you are running and they spooled up, maxed torque at a much lower RPM (3000) and consequently made a lot less HP. But still fun numbers, and look at the torque curve rocket up when it spools... that'll put your ass in the back seat. Incidentally EAP calculates everything you could dream of, intake temps, compressor efficiency, compressor hp you name it, they are not all in that screen shot, there's about 50 more rows of data off the screen.
Image
[edit] can't get over that torque curve, there's 150lbs of torque happening within 500 RPM's (2000 to 2500) that's like having a pleasantly curvy woman land in your lap at 30mph :rockout:
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by Boilermaker »

Thanks for doing all that work and posting it up. I'm going to download the EAPro trial again and put it on another computer just to play around with the numbers.
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by 1bolt »

Okay finally got back to this after more reading of the novel known as the EAP manual, turns out Valve train (weights strength of each component) has a impact on the power curve, so I decided to turn that on, and input some basic approximate numbers. Still working on them but the effects are only a few foot pounds and/or HP. Anyway I keep learning things that have effects that make the simulated 4.0 put too much power down and then learn something else in short order that when inputed, puts the peak power numbers right back where they're supposed to be, only with more accurate curves before and after the peak power numbers.

So here's some basic tests of the current revision of Sim4.0, first I ran the bone stock setup, and then changed only the intake manifold to the simulated 99+ inatake. As you can see it looks just like you would envision it, if you've been reading Dino Savva's and Lee Hurley's remarks about it over the years:
Image
Dino Savva has always maintained it's worth about 3 or 4hp and Lee Hurley has said it's main benefit is a nice low and mid range (and peak) Torque bump of around 10 foot pounds through the band. Anyone who follows the HESCO board will know what I'm talking about. Looks like they're both right as far as EAP is concerned. It's important to understand that these number are derived from actual differences in dimensions between the two intake manifolds, That is the runner lengths, plenum size, degrees of taper, and "flow coefficients" of the two manifolds, the squared (90* to the plenum) HO log being much worse than the smoothly curving 99+.

These numbers will be bigger with a stroker and performance bolt ons (12hp and 14 ft lbs which matches Comanche91's dyno results). A little porting work and I would expect to see an increase in HP at the top end. Especially with optimized fuel and spark timing. Optimized tuning can be seen in Comanche91's dyno thread:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=387

Boring the stock TB, 58mm to 63mm (maxed out) is not worth posting a graph of (3hp and 2 lbs) its mostly a throttle response mod, but is certainly cheap HP. It is a mod that will scale up extremely well, as you improve other facets of the engines performance the larger TB will become more and more of a benefit.

Curious I decided to look at Dino Savva's more extreme TB mod going with a 65mm Mustang TB this is worth 4hp and 3lbs... Again throttle response is the primary benefit but $20 will get you a Mustang TB a little time moding it up and that's some seriously cheap hp, better bang for your buck than a $50 K&N filter. Again on a larger engine with more mods I would expect the TB to be worth 6 or even 8hp.

Next Sim4.0 post maybe I'll play with some extreme mods like drastic changes to the intake tract. Also at some point I'm going to see what the 0331 Cylinder head REALLY does in terms of added torque with its better intake ports, and smaller (ostensibly worse) exhausts. I think once I'm happy that it's accurate, and not throwing out happy numbers like desktop dyno seems to, I'll start adding virtual bolt ons, and follow the typical Jeepers upgrade path... TB, spacer, Long tube headers, 99 intake, Cam options for max torque versus max horse power etc. etc. Then we can compare a max power 4.0 to a bone stock one. After that it will be time for SimStroker.
--
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by Plechtan »

Am i to assume the torque dropping off around 4,500 is due to a lack of air? Or is it more Cam related ?
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by 1bolt »

The best way to explain it would be to visualize those curves moving further into the RPM range (moving to the right) but torque staying the same height (same peak numbers but at a higher RPM). When you shorten the intake runner (or exhaust) OR when you make the runners/Ports BIGGER in cross section so it flows more CFM (either one does the same thing) you "roll" the torque curve further and further to the right, this makes the HP curve climb until a certain point is reached.

So yes, the Torque "falls off" because there's not enough air moving fast enough to keep making the torque go up indefinitely... (I'm simplifying: There's also more and more friction and a mess of other things that all will lower the peak torque as you move it further to the right on the graph)

It is amazingly simple if you just visualize it as a big tuning curve that moves right or left and the HP as we all know ALWAYS meets the torque at 5250 RPM so the earlier the torque peaks the lower the HP and the later the torque peaks the higher the HP (this is overly simplified for the sake of example)...

So if you progressively open up the intake ports and runners (or make them shorter) you make your 232 foot pounds move to the right more and more until the 232 is at 5250 RPM's.

Which of course means that your Horse Power is now 232! It's 232 at 5250 RPM's. That means you've now increased your 4.0's HP by nearly FORTY horses...

Only one problem (besides the fact that I'm oversimplifying it again torque will be lost as you move it to the right): Now your torque peak is at 5250 RPM's and the engine can't pull away from a stop light without lugging. And your mid range torque is in the toilet.

So now assuming you've got all the bolt ons and you can't make the torque curve HIGHER (Larger engine, Better Efficiency, forced induction are your three options for that). The trick becomes, making the torque curve longer and then tuning it as low as you must for practicality but as high as you can to optimize hp: To get that useful "work" within the RPM range that you built your motor to work best within (or to stay together at). In your case you don't even need to start moving your MJ under its own power (pusher vehicle to get you rolling)... You can cam and tune lengths for a power band between 3500 and 6500 RPM's Most importantly you can ratio a custom built trans or overdrive and rear axle gear to work best at ratios that would make a street vehicle unusable.

Paul I apologize if I seem like I'm lecturing you, I'm learning a lot of this stuff myself as I go. And I find it fascinating :ugeek: <- Spock smiley).
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by Plechtan »

Most people here are running stroker motors ( i hope) so losing some low end torque could be made up for with more stroke and bore. A 5 or 6 sped trans will also help or a high stall speed torque converter.

On the issue of keeping the air moving on the intake, Just about forever they have used dual plane intake manifolds on V8 engines to address this. I have heard that Toyota has a vane in the intake runner that they can control electrically that restricts the airflow and will speed up the airflow into the cylinder. As RPM increases they retract the vane and then have full airflow to the cylinder.

Attacking this from another angle, Lee Hurley (Hesco) has special lifters made that have a .008 hole EDM etched into the bottom of them. At low speed the lifters can leak down reducing the duration of the cam, but at higher speeds the oil cannot leak out quickly enough and the duration of the cam increases. I think Comp Cams sells a similar product. Lee says that they based it on the work he did with stock cars.
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by SilverXJ »

Plechtan wrote: Attacking this from another angle, Lee Hurley (Hesco) has special lifters made that have a .008 hole EDM etched into the bottom of them. At low speed the lifters can leak down reducing the duration of the cam, but at higher speeds the oil cannot leak out quickly enough and the duration of the cam increases. I think Comp Cams sells a similar product. Lee says that they based it on the work he did with stock cars.
The CompCam lifter you are talking about is their "Hi-Tech" lifters. I talked to Comp about using them and they recommended against it on a street application as they are very noisy at low RPM use and they aren't designed to run in that condition for a long time. However if your engine is track only then that lifter maybe ideal. I don't know how these differ from Hesco's lifter.
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Re: Engine Analiyzer Pro: modeling the Stock 4.0 & Bolt on mods

Post by John »

These are variations on the original Rhoads lifter, http://www.rhoadsproducts.com/. Oem in the Viper, http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35628. They work
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