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Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Performance mods and Advanced Stroker discussion.
LRSimons
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Vehicle Year: 1995
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Vehicle Model: XJ

Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 18th, 2018, 8:01 pm

Got the jeep running boost for real this weekend. Last weekend got the rest of the hardware done- wastegate, charge piping, odds and ends. It built a little bit of boost on the lightest wastegate spring (turned out to be 3psi) however the stock injectors ran out of fuel just as the turbo started spooling up.

Was hoping for a trip to the track yesterday but got rained out. Got a whole bunch of stuff finished in preparation, most notably a set of ebay 80lb injecotrs. They are copies of some oe injectors, I figured for a 1/3 the price of the real deal they were worth a shot. They are working great so far! After retuning the fuel map they are performing exactly as I want them to.

Yesterday this was the progress I made in terms of making the jeep faster-

-Got the injectors tuned in and was able to rev the 3 psi spring all the way out, felt cool and probably 20 hp better but not fast yet
-Fixed the last remaining (I hope) exhaust leak and improved spool and the turbo could be heard more clearly
-Swapped in a 2 steps stiffer spring. Cheesy wastegate came with 4 UNLABLED :evil: springs that ALL can be concurrently installed. 2nd stiffest spring in its own made 6 psi on the minimum preload setting, went up to about 8 with the adjuster cranked all the way.
-After swapping springs we were able to get a better idea of how the turbo was spooling, which was/is... suboptimal. It started building boost around 3500 rpm, with the wastegate opening around 4200 or so. Started pulling HARD at 4k. It has real power, however with boost coming in after peak torque it's not so usable. Not really enough area under the curve.
-Also went to a 180 tstat from a 195, made the driving experience FAR better.


Tonight I took the jeep out after the sun went down and HOLY COW does cool night air (and no passenger) make a difference. I also swapped in the lightest spring on top of the 2nd heaviest, it made 9 pounds today. Doing pulls in third, it sucks you down into the seat and holds you there. It's FAST. Its quite a strange and new feeling. If I HAD to put a number on it, I'd estimate 100 whp more than stock. The cool dense air let it build a pound or 2 around 3k as well and helped out the powerband a bit.



To help bring the boost threshold down a bit, I'm going to wrap the rest of the exhaust- it's wrapped about 1/3 of the way down now. To have a usable powerband, full boost needs to hit at 3500 or lower and being able to build a few below 3k would make it lots of fun on the street.

Can't wait to take it to the track. The eventual goal for the jeep is 12s, and honestly I don't think it's going to be that hard. Couple pounds of boost and a little more timing combined with power from 3500 to 5200 and it's a rocket. If i can cut a 13.50 on crappy old street tires it's a 12 second car on slicks.



Moral of the story- build something awesome that no one has done before on minimal budget! Once you're leaning things and making the '69 chevelle crowd angry, you're going in the right direction. Also, rear mount turbos WORK.

Cummins90
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by Cummins90 » August 19th, 2018, 4:59 am

This is a remote set up hx35 12cm housing?

LRSimons
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 19th, 2018, 6:22 am

Yes, remote mount close to the floor right after the c pillar. 4 door chop top. Not sure on the housing, it's a hx35w straight from the junkyard. Bone stock and probably needs a rebuild.

I should mention that I haven't welded shut the stock wastegate yet, just holding it shut with wire. Could be leaking and slowing spool.

Cummins90
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by Cummins90 » August 19th, 2018, 6:39 am

They are a very reliable unit. If it's a wh1c or an hx35 from a 5.9 diesel ram they are a 12cm turbine housing. The turbine size is cast into the inside of the housing. Viewable from the t3 flange inlet. Not very helpful at this point. Smaller turbine housing are available.

LRSimons
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 19th, 2018, 6:46 am

It should be the 12cm housing then. I may have to swap housings in the future if spool cannot be improved. An aftermarket housing would also delete the wategate portion and save some space and weight.

I'm happy with the turbo so far. The value has been fantastic as I only paid $40 for it. Got it from a 24v powered school bus, unfortunately in the school bus application the turbo was much more exposed and it is crusty beyond belief.

I recently got a 24v pickup and it's the exact same turbo. Suppose I could upgrade the one on my truck and use the nicer 35 on the jeep...

Cummins90
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by Cummins90 » August 19th, 2018, 10:03 am

They can be pretty nasty on the outside and still function. They are a very straightforward rebuild. Mark the turbine shaft, nut and comp wheel before taking apart. The only issue is the turbine oil ring. After getting it seated on the turbine shaft all to often people just slam it in. That will deform it every time. A small bevel can be filed into the CHRA to compress the seal as it is gently pushed into place. This would be easier to explain if I had pics but I forgot and your hands are covered in oil during assembly.

LRSimons
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 19th, 2018, 6:24 pm

Thanks for the tips. Seems like most things on a cummins are pretty straightforward but nasty jobs.

Any idea on what size turbo blanket would fit? I'm assuming the turbine housing is physically larger than a "normal" T3 flange turbo. The turbo blankets are sized by flange size so I'm thinking a t3/t4 or a t4 would work. Any experience would be greatly appreciated. No way I'm shelling out $175 for a specific fit.

Cummins90
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by Cummins90 » August 20th, 2018, 6:55 am

I had picked up a t3 knockoff turbo blanket. It didn't fit great on an WH1C 12cm but it did fit enough to cover the turbine scroll.

LRSimons
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 20th, 2018, 2:15 pm

I'll order the t4 one then.

Strange thing happened today. After I gave a ride to a friend at work, the wastegate stuck open. It still managed to build a tiny bit of boost though, but stayed open enough to make the jeep sound like it was running an open header. Took it off, cleaned up, reinstalled and works fine. Gave it some more turns on the adjuster screw to make sure the small spring was loaded. Got another pound or so of boost.

Have some driveablility work to do yet, have to fasten down the hatch so its not flopping about and get a new shifter boot among other things. Then more boost and more aggressive timing.

Cummins90
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by Cummins90 » August 21st, 2018, 4:52 am

Are you using autotune? Are you using knock control on the ms3?

LRSimons
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 21st, 2018, 6:46 pm

Not using autotune, haven't paid for the upgraded tunerstudio yet. I should really buy the datalog viewer, it would be helpful.

No knock detection, kind of a pain to set up and I would rather spend that money on a dyno tune. Pretty conservative timing while tuning on the street. I wouldn't recommend tuning timing on the street persay, but with dyno tuning if you're going to change the setup frequently you better have a friend to get you free dyno time.

Cummins90
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by Cummins90 » August 22nd, 2018, 8:59 am

I've used the auto tune on ms2 extra. Well worth the buy. I did my tune completely off the dyno. The only issue I had, which was my own fault, I left my idle timing too advanced which lead to a surge and off throttle stall. Easy flaw to identify and fix as an experienced tuner. At the time I was not. Cruising and boost was flawless.

LRSimons
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 23rd, 2018, 8:21 pm

I may experiment with autotune in the future. Manually tuning, my map is probably 90% of the way there.

What did you do to tune ignition? I found a couple of maps online for other 2v stock heads/cam engines and build mine similar to that. Impossible to get this map spot on without a dyno tune, so mine is still fairly conservative. I'm running a max of 32 degrees at na wot at 4k+ rpm, pulling 1 degree per pound of boost after 150 kpa, pulling less out at low boost.



How much power do you think your setup is making? Stock pulley on the m90? Does it make usable boost at low rpm?



Update on the jeep- wrapped the exhaust the other day and got to drive it around today. The jeep is MUCH quieter now. I suppose all the noise bouncing around in the pipe is now contained somewhat. Spool has improved. In 3rd gear the wastegate opens at ~3800 instead of 4300 or so. Have not tested in cool night air yet, I would assume another 200 rpm from that. Think I'll order the turbo blanket now (wanted to do one thing at a time) as the turbo is now cooking the intercooler. :brickwall:

Cummins90
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by Cummins90 » August 24th, 2018, 8:12 am

My MS was on a Neon someone with a lot of tuning knowledge helped me with the set up. I wanted to learn so the poor idle is still on me.

My 96 with an m90 has a 2.55 pulley with the stock crank pulley. Tuned with a AEM FIC and 36lbs injectors. It has a good midrange bump in power but until the SC gets moving with the engine it doesn't provide much low end power. It leaves much to be desired at max boost, about 178kpa, at 5000rpm. Intake temps on a long straight hill at full boost on a 97*f day hit 210 with prerotor meth. No detonation on the visual but it was enough of a concern to turn the boost down. When ambient temps are around 50* it is fantastic.

What are your air intake temps at?

LRSimons
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Re: Driving my Turbo MS3 XJ!

Post by LRSimons » August 24th, 2018, 4:51 pm

Holy cow, 11 psi on a m90. That's certainly a heat machine. Blow through or draw through? The injection was keeping that thing together for sure.

Have you ported it at all? From what I've read that can help it act like a larger blower and keep temps a tad lower. Also, are you sucking air from a cool spot and managing the under hood heat? On mine I've added hood spacers, wrapped the header, switched to a 180 stat and pulled out the ac condenser. It runs cool, have a volvo efan on the shelf but haven't needed it yet.

Driving in weather that hot would be stressing mine out pretty good too though!

I honestly do not have a good iat sensor setup- just the stock sensor in the manifold. The sensor gets heatsoaked as you can imagine and doesn't respond fast enough to notice a change under boost. Cruising around the temp sits around 95 on 75-80 degree days. Gets up to 135 or more after sitting.

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