98 TJ getting a worked over edel headed, 4.x What else?

[rwkhaussupply]

Ok so I have had 3 strokers built by Russ here in Cali. First 2 were in a race jeep (Ultra4 then moved to Jeepspeed). They ran amazingly well. Extremely happy and had power to compete.

This next one I am about to take delivery of in the next week I hope (Russ, no pressure). I will be putting it in to a 98 TJ with a 32RH 3sp auto trans. The trans is my real reason for putting so much $ and power in to it. I am on a 35" tire, and 4.11 gears, with a 4:1 trans case. SO fwy is great, but around town with me, wife and son in back, well it sucks!

In the race car I had a full canvass to work with. SO it was stand alone ECU, bypass fuel system at 53ish PSI and 26lb inj. 2.5" exh with one dynomax muff. with a 35" tire and 5.38 gears. A/F ran at 14.6 idle and just off idle up, at 12.6ish.

This TJ is a family Jeep with restrictions and just looking for what you guys here think I might be looking at for tuning, the correct A/F. I have a 2.25" exh with 2 spintech 1 chambers and a 12" glass pack currently, and likely will keep it for drivablity noise. Other than that one main restriction I have going in/on it:
Russ build 4.x long block with scat crank
Edel very worked over head by Russ (his first one so far, so hoping its worth the $) all port matched and flowed
Roller Rockers
10.125:1 (on paper, will take actual once together)
new style int (port matched and throttle body inlet matched)
Turbocity int tube/filter
JBA ceramic coated header
62MM BBK throttle body
30lbs inj
Bosch stock PSI in-take pump and reg
stock electronics and sensors

SO if you were to guess at what I might be expecting when it comes to A/F needs, should I be worried with the above? I see people like 505 (never liked them and seen issues with their stuff though) offer a split second this or that. And I read about a MAP sensor for this or that. Etc. I never had to run this stuff in the past with the Jeep and OBD1 system. But that was a very different Jeep.

Any advice or direction or links to such, much appreciated.
robert

[jsawduste]

Ryan Hogan aka Flying Ryan is whom you want to be talking to.

Ryan will make up a base (safe) cal for you to start. Do data acquisition and tweak things till your happy. He is quite famular with the I6 and it`s needs.

[email protected]

https://www.facebook.com/ryan.hogan.735?fref=ts

fzsk4p on NAXJA

[christuned]

Besides Ryan , I am available to help you with tuning, and I'm local to you (Los Angeles/Orange county) so if you want to get it on the dyno, it's no problem, or we can do some street tuning.

[rwkhaussupply]

Besides Ryan , I am available to help you with tuning, and I'm local to you (Los Angeles/Orange county) so if you want to get it on the dyno, it's no problem, or we can do some street tuning.

Well I emailed Ryan and nothing in 24hrs. So I might take you up on that. I have a dyno avail when ever I need in Signal Hill at a media company that specializes in drifting. I would need it maybe the 13th or 14th if poss?

email/call me?
Robert
714-875-2414
[email protected]

[rwkhaussupply]

SO FYI's...

Anyone running this head. I started with the Edelbrock recommended RC12YC plugs. I have been working thru adjusting and such all kinds of things to get power out of a decently built 4.7. One thing I did was pull plugs to see color and change them. They were white as white, and then I realized that what I got from the parts store were RC12LYC.

The difference is about .23 more projection into the cyl. I tried calling Edel but it was 4:35pm pac and they were closed and I am trying everything I can to get it to a dyno tomorrow, so I just figured why not. Installed all the LYC plugs and started easier, ran smoother and I think picked up noticeable gain in power.

I called edelbrock and explained this to them and they are going to investigate the need to change recommended plugs.

Also anyone installing this head, dont be surprised if you have to open up the AC bracket lower (or the 2 upper) mounting holes. My bracket was about 1/4" to far apart and seems as though the head is manuf. with the mounting holes a tad bit lower. Easy fix, just ream out the lower mounting bolt hole some.

Another FYI, even with roller rockers and beehive springs, the Valve Train Is Noisy. I was told the valve seats were Very hard material, and I think the valve closing/hitting the seats is noticeable now in volume.

I am Not happily surprised Yet. I think its the 32RH trans that is my biggest culprit, mixed with 4.11 gears and a 35" MTR and Raceline beadlocks that are heavy as sin.

My biggest self done adjustment since sunday when this engine went in, was the Spark plug change and kick down cable adjustment. Still though, currently it feel like only 30-50hp more than stock. And it has alot of work/$ in it. Tomorrow I go to the dyno with Chris, as well as my buddy with the same exact engine, but a Russ done 7120 head with something like .002 larger int valve but less flow. And he is in a XJ with a AW4, 4.56, and 35" tires. His feels to pull nicely once you hit about 25-3000rpms. Mine just seems flat. Oh and he is running 26lbs (I think or 24), and I am on 30lbs. My idle seems a bit lean over what I am used to with a 4.0 at 14.9 to 15.2. And WOT at 11.1-11.3. SO I think I am oversized on inj. Reading -15 to -16.5% long term fuel trim. Runs lean cutting back and then WOT gets fat fast.

Tomorrow I will know if I wasted alot of time or not. Money is not that big of a deal compared to time. I can make money, I cant make time....


Oh anyone know how to Dyno with a 32RH trans? What do I do? Put in 2nd and then WOT and once it hits second then start reading? Seems like a PITA. Manuals seem so much easier.

[jsawduste]

Robert, thanks for being upfront with the information thus far. Good or bad the information is going to help a lot of people.

Chris and myself (Ryan and Mike also) have exchanged a number of messages. It makes sense to use him (Chris) as he is close by. Suspect that once he gets to the dyno and starts pulling numbers he will be able to identify and hopefully correct any "sore spots" in the cal. Chris can add some fuel at idle and take some away at WOT open loop. Perhaps an adjustment in fuel pressure along with his changing of the injector duty cycle will bring you optimum results. There is a lot more to setting up a good cal then simply changing duty cycle and Chris knows this.

Having your buddy with the Russ-7120 will be interesting but I suspect his setup is different enough that the curves will be the only thing we can really look at. And even then too many variables.

I will be brutally honest though....The Edlebrock really knocked me down. I was hoping for a lot more then what the finished product ended up being. Your honesty and test results will have a big impact on which way I go in repowering my YJ. Had starting collecting parts to build an Edlebrock stroker to replace the 7120 stroker I have in it now.

My 7120 stroker has been dead nuts reliable for the last 10 years. Been dyno-ed several times and runs Pretty Damn Good.
I`ll be most interested in comparing your notes to my runs. After which I`ll decide if I want to keep the current engine, build another stroker or (don`t tell Mike) go with an LS.

Thanks again Robert and good luck. Please keep us informed with how things work out.

[rwkhaussupply]

I posted this in another thread, I will copy paste here.

The cam I think is very mild.
EDIT- lift is .462/.485
Dur @ .050 206/214
113 sep.

I dont know how much other info Russ wants advertised, I know he gets this cam custom with Comp and himself liking the grind they came up with.


Now on to my pre/post dyno report.

32RH SUCKS on a dyno. No way to make a full pull and chest pounding results. No way to hold it in 2 or especially 3rd. Sure you can hold the 35mph that the dyno loads up to in 3rd at like 20% throttle. Then when you is go time and you try to pull, you have to modulate how much throttle you give it or it down shifts and then it really just goes out the winder. Or you can try to find the happy spot just before it down shifts, but then your not getting even close to Max HP #'s.

SO I used the time for what it really was for and that was for Chris to do some load test and mapping and get fuel and timing better/right.

When I first installed this pretty thing I had HIGH expectations. I was extremely disappointed. Felt less than stock in power. Well it just needed alot of little "tweaks" evidently.

Started with new O2 just cause. Seemed to help a tad bit.
Tried to move dist/cam sensor over one tooth each way to see if that was the issue, nada.
Then found that one plug wire was arcing out and figured just new wires and plugs. Bought the rc12Lyc projected tip (stock basically) plugs. Pulled out White as white can be plugs and installed the new longer tip and good new set of wires. This was significant improvement.
But, still lugged and bogged and would not down shit in to 1st. Adjusted the trans detent cable. This was the single most impact-full thing, besides tuning on dyno. Now it was drive-able without mentally just thinking lets pull this out and LS swap it.
At this point I was now about double the power It felt like then when I first drove it 2 days prior with the new 4.7.
Then I had one of my 3 mufflers removed. I had/have, 2.25 all manderal bent tube with 2 tiny lil (like 4x6x4) spintech true track race type mufflers and a 10" glass pack, as well as a magnaflow CA legal high flow cat. Hard to explain, but if you have a TJ imagine a rear triangulated susp setup and nice over sized belly skid. And my prime concern when I had it done, was for quiet and compact. SO I had the one glasspack removed from the rear most position to open it up a bit. It got louder and sounds alot like an older SBC in say a chevelle or such. But, again picked up a tad more power I think.
Then since it would run lean(15.2-15.4) at idle with a long term fuel trim of -14 to -17, and then Very fat at WOT in the low 11's), I bought a set of FiveO 24.5lbs inj. Just incase my 30lbs were just too much.

Went to dyno last night. As mentioned above, no way to do real pulls. Just pieces here and there it seemed. I think the highest it reached was like 120HP and 201tq on different occasions and the majority of the graphs were so up down and one even went around in a circle almost. SO I dont think the HP ever even got close to max, and I doubt th etorque was maxed either, but Everything I read on the 32RH TJ and larger tires etc. The typical loos is about 35-40%. SO if the 201tq was maxed even then I would be sitting about 280TQ, and it was almost perfectly flat from 2k up to like 5200. SO I am sure it has more TQ even. But this is all guessing.

Chris flashed a few times after doing some partial pulls here and there. I was lost mostly as to what he was really doing.

But after about 3 hours, we wrapped it up. On my way to MOTOIQ to use their Dyno about 40 miles away, it drove ok. As chris first said when he was just reving, it to cal the dyno engine speed, it just didnt seem like it wanted to rev, it was rough. On my way home, it was a whole other creature. Very responsive now. It does want to rev now, I feel. The A/F were in the high 14's cruising on the Fwy. And the few times on the way home I WOT'd, it was high 12's maybe 13.1. Much better. It has more power still again.

The MPG registered at 14.9 for my 40mile drive home. The long term fuel trim was only at -2.5 to -3.

I feel this engine now has the power of my race jeep that had also a russ built engine, but the fully worked over iron head and I think more comp, but over a point more, but cant say for sure. I also had the AW4 with lower first, 5.38 gears and a 35" tire. SO if this is on par with that engine now, as I really think it is. I am very happy. And the rings still might seat in a tad bit more. Only maybe 300-400 miles on it as of now.

What I like:
Very flat power "curve"
Idles very nice
Should be very smog legal, as everything is CARB legal (maybe cam tech. is not, but thats niether here nor there).
Decent gas mileage
Trans is very nice as a street driver, shifts at perfect RPM now and downshifts perfectly I feel. Will add a transgo kit soon though.
Bling parts, matters when you went from race jeep to family jeep lol.

What I dont like so much:
How loud it is now. Not very bad but not my quiet lil 4.0 thats for sure.
Cant spin the tires (but 4.11 gears and 35's on an auto).
How mild the cam is I THINK. Maybe this is for the better though. I run 17-18in vac at idle, get 15MPG, and idle purrs.
The 3 sp trans, but not willing at this point to AW4 swap it. maybe next year.

Would I do it all over with the Engine and head I have, maybe not. The extra cost of the head I dont think is justified if you have the 7120 option from Russ also avail at I would guess $1000 less. Maybe if you are building a track style engine, but its still Just a 4.0 block with long weak cam stick.

Would I recommend Tuning. HIGHLY! I cant do what Chris or I guess any one with the right knowledge and equipment can. And I did Not feel comfortable with the fuel in the 11's at WOT (washes the cyl bad and bad for O2 etc), and then daily driving and semi loads on engine were in the 14.8-15's. Not to mention the drive-ability and smooth rev's now. And I am sure the timing he added had to have helped.

Sorry about the long post. but just hope to get all the info, facts, and my opinion in there.

[jsawduste]

Robert,
Russ and myself did exchange a few messages last weekend on the cam. It was what he was comfortable with and felt the better choice. There is always the opportunity to go with more stick if so desired but lets start out with a proven setup.

By your own admission getting a good dyno pull was impossible. Comparing this TJ to your race Jeep is almost apples and oranges. Nonetheless still information.

Curious on what EFI system/cal your running in the race jeep.

Very apparent that Chris`s work is what woke the Edlebrock engine up. Further cal and attention will most likely show even more improvement. Glad to see that it`s coming around.

[rwkhaussupply]

Robert,
Russ and myself did exchange a few messages last weekend on the cam. It was what he was comfortable with and felt the better choice. There is always the opportunity to go with more stick if so desired but lets start out with a proven setup.

By your own admission getting a good dyno pull was impossible. Comparing this TJ to your race Jeep is almost apples and oranges. Nonetheless still information.

Curious on what EFI system/cal your running in the race jeep.

Very apparent that Chris`s work is what woke the Edlebrock engine up. Further cal and attention will most likely show even more improvement. Glad to see that it`s coming around.

Maybe I need to clarify, I thought I was descriptive enough in all that ramble, but just incase not.
Didnt say there was a mistake on cam. Only that the stick (blanks) are weak. Meaning that they harmonic and flex, at higher RPM's.

I am Only comparing the race jeep to the TJ with seat of pants. And now they are very close. But the race jeep had 2 huge advantages. Gearing was 5.38 over my tj at 4.11, and the AW4 over the 32RH trans, aw4 lower 1st gear and OD.

Yes tuning did great things.

The race jeep had a all stock ODB1 system that all excess wiring and terminals were stripped out and basically made in to a stand alone system. Then the stock ECU was used. And only tuning was fuel system based. I used a wideband and return fuel systems pressure to adjust best I could. If I remember correctly I was at 24lb injectors running 53-57 PSI.

In any case IMO I would just do everything the same but with the 7120 ported head, If I was on the fence of which head. BUT, since I wanted bling and to be the first Non test fit Jeep with this head in a performance build, and only a grand more, well I went edel head.