OBD1/2 Question/Opinions

[jsawduste]

Right now my 4.8 stroker is set up with OBD1 controls.

.080 Diamonds, Eagles, .043 Q, Hesco 274/480, 63mm TB, Rollers, late model intake, 24 lbers, blah, blah. Done the IAT relocation and used Chris`s idea and moved the crank sensor to bump in some timing. Still running the stock MAP voltage but do have one of Jeff`s adjusters to install.

After playing with the TB plate and adding an air bleed plus doing some trial and error with fuel pressure I`ve gotten the engine to be running pretty well. Dyno numbers are respectable and overall I am pretty pleased with how it runs.

Human nature being what it is I am having a hard time leaving well enough alone though.

Chris and myself have talked but I wanted to get a few more opinions/experiences.

Now the question..........

Is it worth updating to OBD2 ?

I would use OEM parts as I don`t want the risk of unobtanium with single source components like the Mega Squirt.

I do understand that there are several folks out in the aftermarket that can reflash the (OBD2) ECM and frankly that would be the only reason I`d even consider changing over. Perhaps there are some tweaks to the fuel trims or maybe some timing mapping that can be changed but is it really worth the expense of time and hassle to convert ?

Cost is a consideration but not in the typical sense. The conversion would entail buying the harness(es) and the ECM. Some of the sensors might have to change with round vs. flat terminals. Plus changing some of the current underhood component locations to facilitate the new wiring Add the cost of the guys that can reprogram and you have spent quite a few bucks but are still running an inline 6 cylinder engine.

Take that conversion and compare it to swapping in something like a 5.3 or a 6.0.

I have the running gear to support the 5.3/6.0 with an NV4500/Atlas/Rock Jock axles etc so there is no additional cost there.

Seems like the end result doesn't justify the means.

Comments or opinions welcome.

[jsawduste]

The silence is overwhelming.

Suspect my question has been answered loud and clear.

[FlyinRyan]

After wrapping up an OBD1 -> OBD2 swap, I can't imagine why anyone would even waste their time with SBEC.

[jsawduste]

After wrapping up an OBD1 -> OBD2 swap, I can't imagine why anyone would even waste their time with SBEC.

Ryan, thanks for the reply. Still running the OBD1 SBEC setup.

My question is whether the trouble to convert to OBD2 is worth doing vs. doing a V8 swap.

Engine mounts and a bellhousing would be all I would need to do to physically mount the V8. Then it is a matter of adding all the components to make it run/finish it off. The more I research the more I find out that the V8 is going to be a lot of work and expense. Perhaps not worth the investment for the realized gains.

Looking for someone to push me over the fence sorta speak that converting to OBD2 is going to make my stroker run that much better then it already does.

To ask the question another way. Will converting to OBD2 and having the ECM reflashed to meet the calibrations of my stroker worth doing ? Or would I be better off simply switching engines and starting fresh ?

Thanks

[I6FAN]

You gotta ask yourself is the OBD1 six doing what you want it to do, and realizing by going to OBD2 will net you some gain, but will it be enough for what you want it to do? I think you reason to gain no doubt, but how much? I think the control conversion would be easier/cheaper than the v8 swap. Even if you do a v8 swap, will you be happy with a standard tune or will you want to "maximize" the performance of it? Either way, your going to re-tune it so maybe that's a cost no matter which way you go. Then it would come down to the system swap vs the actual engine and system swap. To me, the 4.0 is stroked to get maximum/greater displacement and then properly tuned to get full return on investment. Then you have to love it for what it is: a maximized engine set-up within it's own bounds.

[jsawduste]

Your comments are spot on, thank you.

I THINK my stroker runs pretty darn good for what it is. Can not help be curious how much better it could be if it was controlled by an OBD2 ECM..

Again your on the money with the V8 swap. It would still require a re-flash (of the V8 ECM) if for no other reason to take the torque management out and remove the abuse protection that is cal-ed into every V8 ECM. Plus we still have all the harness work to do.

Was hoping someone could chime in and say "My stroker ran good but now runs super since the ECM was reflashed" or something along those words.

Perhaps a dyno report where the owner came in with baseline numbers and walked out with xx numbers by re-flashing the ECM.

Something quantitative I could hold in my hands.

[FlyinRyan]

After wrapping up an OBD1 -> OBD2 swap, I can't imagine why anyone would even waste their time with SBEC.

Ryan, thanks for the reply. Still running the OBD1 SBEC setup.

My question is whether the trouble to convert to OBD2 is worth doing vs. doing a V8 swap.

Engine mounts and a bellhousing would be all I would need to do to physically mount the V8. Then it is a matter of adding all the components to make it run/finish it off. The more I research the more I find out that the V8 is going to be a lot of work and expense. Perhaps not worth the investment for the realized gains.

Looking for someone to push me over the fence sorta speak that converting to OBD2 is going to make my stroker run that much better then it already does.

To ask the question another way. Will converting to OBD2 and having the ECM reflashed to meet the calibrations of my stroker worth doing ? Or would I be better off simply switching engines and starting fresh ?

Thanks

You know where I stand on this. My reviews speak for themselves. If you're really that worried about power, throw in a heads/cam 360, pcm and harness out of a Ram, run one of my reflashes and enjoy having 350 whp at the turn of the key. I had a customer who had me tune their 4.7 stroker, then upon cam bearing failure swapped in a 318 Ram motor, then had me tune that. Not only did he have more torque, but the V8 tuning brought it to life and he saw better mileage than with the stroker.

[jsawduste]

Sorry my crystal ball is a bit cloudy. I do know you have not broken the code for updating OBD1 calibration. Perhaps that is why you are coming across the way you are ?? With that attitude/response what ever I end up doing will for sure NOT involve Flying Ryan.

Sure glad I recommended Chris Jensen [email protected] to several folks. Including this years 2nd place winner of the EMC KOH event a couple weeks ago. Whom has publically praised Chris`s work. In addition a notable East Coast racer whom is well recognized and also had a respectable finish in this years KOH event is considering a stroker. Part of that plan includes Chris Jensen.

I don`t give a flying F on how much power I have. More power is always available in any number of ways. One thing for sure it would not be Mopar induced should I decide to travel that way. All I am interested in is optimizing what I already have and if that is not realistic then I will change the game plan to meet whatever demands I feel warranted. Which might be doing absolutely nothing.

What I have not seen is somebody showing that OBD2 tuning is that much superior to the my modified OBD1. I am not so naïve to think that stock OBD1 would compare favorably to a modified OBD2 but mine is not stock. Fuel trims and spark have been modified.

[SilverXJ]

You have invested much time and effort in to getting your combo to run the way you expect and I am not sure how much more an OBD II conversion + tune would get you. If you had some odd drivability issues due to a large cam or something else I would recommend OBD II 100% as problems such as those can be tuned out. There is a possibility you would get more power, but then again maybe not.

One thing for sure it would not be Mopar induced should I decide to travel that way.

x2

[jsawduste]

Thanks Chris Silver for your response.

Suspect your correct. You more then most know what drives my engine and mindset.

[FlyinRyan]

There hasn't been, nor will there ever be any "breaking the code" for OBD1 for me. There are people who do it (Chris is one of them, and I don't doubt his abilities), I presume that they are skilled in what they do, and if they make money doing it, good for them. I personally have no interest in bench flashing/trying to reverse engineer the code . I'm not a software guy by a long shot. For what I personally do, OBD2 is the way to go, for me. I deal with way too wide of a demographic, too many different setups, too many different variables, to feel comfortable with mail-order flashing.

I'm not sure what attitude you are inferring, my response was concise and to the point. You and I have discussed this offline, so this shouldn't be a shocker as to what my stand is on OBD1/2. Sorry it does not jive with yours?

Why V8 swap if you do not care about power?

I'm not sure what your criteria is for deciding what is better. Whether OBDI or OBDII, fuel is fuel, spark is spark, alot of it will depend on the calibrator. It sounds like you are still using airbleeds, adjustable sensors (CKP), and other things to achieve the desired result? I've done some wild stuff on OBDII (and working on other stuff presently) without the use of any of this. I suspect that this is more of a limitation of mail-order flashing, and not indicative of Chris's abilities or even OBD1.

Sorry my crystal ball is a bit cloudy. I do know you have not broken the code for updating OBD1 calibration. Perhaps that is why you are coming across the way you are ?? With that attitude/response what ever I end up doing will for sure NOT involve Flying Ryan.

Sure glad I recommended Chris Jensen [email protected] to several folks. Including this years 2nd place winner of the EMC KOH event a couple weeks ago. Whom has publically praised Chris`s work. In addition a notable East Coast racer whom is well recognized and also had a respectable finish in this years KOH event is considering a stroker. Part of that plan includes Chris Jensen.

I don`t give a flying F on how much power I have. More power is always available in any number of ways. One thing for sure it would not be Mopar induced should I decide to travel that way. All I am interested in is optimizing what I already have and if that is not realistic then I will change the game plan to meet whatever demands I feel warranted. Which might be doing absolutely nothing.

What I have not seen is somebody showing that OBD2 tuning is that much superior to the my modified OBD1. I am not so naïve to think that stock OBD1 would compare favorably to a modified OBD2 but mine is not stock. Fuel trims and spark have been modified.

[jsawduste]

Nope no nail order calibration for me. Still running the factory cal from 1993.

You make it sound like a derogatory faction when in fact it can be a useful tool to some. Sorry if you think it is beneath you. Frankly, I`ve enjoyed "playing" with the inputs/components that make up the OBD1/SBEC system and have achieved worthwhile results in doing so. These changes may not meet your critical eye but they do work and work well.

A better response from somebody of your knowledge would have been along the times of commenting on OBD1 vs. OBD2 drivability gains. The ability to more closely tailor spark mapping and fuel trims and so on. Instead you choose to criticize and insult folks and tout the advantages of V8 power.

That is not something your competition does.

[FlyinRyan]

Nope no nail order calibration for me. Still running the factory cal from 1993.

You make it sound like a derogatory faction when in fact it can be a useful tool to some. Sorry if you think it is beneath you. Frankly, I`ve enjoyed "playing" with the inputs/components that make up the OBD1/SBEC system and have achieved worthwhile results in doing so. These changes may not meet your critical eye but they do work and work well.

A better response from somebody of your knowledge would have been along the times of commenting on OBD1 vs. OBD2 drivability gains. The ability to more closely tailor spark mapping and fuel trims and so on. Instead you choose to criticize and insult folks and tout the advantages of V8 power.

That is not something your competition does.

SBEC has its place, The turbo dodge (Kcar) crowd has done quite well with it. But, they've also taken the time to develop it, for 25 years.
There are alot of other issues that come with tuning a vehicle that is 20+ years old that can't be accounted for in your typical tuning quote. Ask anyone who has tried tuning a Foxbody mustang with a factory harness as of late. Yes some vehicles have been rebuilt from top to bottom and are well sorted out, but every 1 that is, there are 10 that aren't, and it makes it, in my eyes, ineffective. It'd be easier to go with a carb, a standalone , or OBDII. PCM/Harness/Electrical/Mechanical issues can happen on any vehicle, but it's just a matter of fact that it is more common on an older vehicle.

I've never been a believer in manipulating inputs/outputs to achieve a desired effect, not to say it doesn't work, it's just not the way I do things. Functional? sure. Ideal? well, not quite. That's my opinion.

OBDII has better diagnostics, it is easier to troubleshoot problems, it is still simple, It is not a major undertaking to reconfigure to OBDII, I am not intimately familiar with SBEC as it relates to the Jeeps but I did a 4.7 stroker with a 238/246 @ 050 cam (114 lsa) and it drove like stock. I'm doing multiple 360s with cams in the [email protected] 106-110 LSA range through JTEC and I expect them to be streetable. And I'm doing them via email. The ability to tune remotely is a beautiful thing. I cant directly compare it to OBD1 as I don't tune OBD1 but I'm not aware of anyone doing that on the older systems. The ability to switch tunes, for different octane ratings, or different blends (The difference in this year's winter/summer blends are alarming) is also something that you can't do with a OBD1 style setup.

I'm all for I6 power, I just am not always in control of what parts go into the motor like I am with the V8 crowd typically. Thus the end result is not is great as it could be with the right SCR/DCR, cam profile, headwork etc. The I6 crowd tends to use less SCR/DCR, much less camshaft, and less headwork than I would opt for. I am supposed to be doing 2 turbo stroker WJs, we are shooting for 450+ whp on gas only.

You asked for opinions...And this is mine. I am not trying to sound harsh or terse but I am speaking freely about my experience with OBDII in that it is very capable. I am not looking to ruffle feathers.

[jsawduste]

Thank you Ryan.
This was the type of information I was looking for. While not straight direct there is enough here to chew on.

My "band aids", as I call them, have revolved around air bleeds as you have mentioned, fuel pressure and sensor relocations. In fact I am still running an unmolested MAP sensor with factory voltage.

Agree that some methods of changing sensor parameters are not palatable. This where band aids become crutches.

Depending on how you want to look at it. The lack of aftermarket support for the I6`s can be a blessing or a curse. Unfortunately until someone comes up with a better cylinder head design and trickle down engineering takes place we will all be pretty limited.

You touch on just some of the factors that I was hoping would rise to the surface. Winter/summer blends, as you pointed out, is an example. Anther would be the ethanol blends we are all faced with using now. These are parameters that an SBEC system may have as an inherent weakness and no amount of "band aids" is going to resolve. Perhaps the change to JTEC is warranted simply for optimum operation within these parameters.

[wjtom]

This is just my opinion on this and ive owned my own shop for 21 years now and have been doing this for close to 30 years so take it for what its worth.The obd2 is superior in everyway.The obd1 is easily confused and much harder to work on.The pcms are slow and data on a scanner is actually behind what is actually happening or just missed period because of sampling.So unless you have access to a lab scope they are often harder to diagnose.Most shops in my area wont even work on them.Im often asked about motor swaps and NEVER recommend pre 95 stuff for engine swaps regardless of brand just for this reason.My 4.7stroker with alot bigger cam than most run on here,more compression,70 mm throttle body,3 inch exhaust and 4.88s still get the same mileage as my stock jeep,idles at 650 in gear(700 with the a/c on) and pulls like a healthy v8.I seriously doubt without the tunability of the newer pcms and tcms this ever would have been possible.