Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

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Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Plechtan »

Ok i put this in the pub, and since this is on the Stroker site, i think i know which way the discussion will go. Is it really off topic? well maybe, maybe not. Allot of people come here when their engine is getting tired or or blown looking for options on replacing it, Stock or stroker, or if a stroker which recipe. Generally people are looking a good bang for the buck, or have a budget and want to see what their options are. Probably the the thing they are looking for the most is an increase in performance. I think people would like an increase in gas mileage as well.

I think the 4.0 is a great motor, most get 250,000 miles or more out of it before it needs a rebuild. Strokers are great too, not super hp, but tons of torque. But the basic design of the engine is old, dating back to 1966. The cylinder head is a real limiting factor and the crank harmonic at about 5600 also limits performance. After building the Bonneville 5.0 motor, i began looking around for another power plant that would give me maximum HP per cubic inch. I liked the idea of an inline 6, I looked at Volvo, BMW etc, but but the Chevy Vortec 4200 inline 6 seemed like the best bang for the buck.

I'm still a huge fan of the 4.0 and in the end we decided to turbocharge the Bonneville truck rather than change engines. Goal is 750-800hp.

But the more i looked at the 4200, i liked the idea of it as a power plant for a daily driver. It is rated at 291 hp and 277 ft/lbs of torque. so probably not as much peak torque as a stroker, but the torque curve is pretty flat .


Here is a chassis dyno run of one installed in a Supra.


Image

here is a link to the Supra swap

http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewto ... f=10&t=780



The 4200 is a modern motor, double overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder, better PCM, etc. it is all aluminum and has a cross flow head. The bottom line is less weight, very good performance and very good MPG. The engine can rev about 1,000 rpm higher than a stroker, so you hae more of a top end, which could allow for taller gears. The exhaust cam has variable timing, this really helps to tweak the performance. The thing that really attracted me what the cost of these engines in the bone yards. generally somewhere between $900-$1,200 this is a similar price to a low mileage late model 4.0 ( if you can find one). But comparing it to a stroker build, i think final costs would be similar. The bottom line is that there is a big demand for good used 4.0 motors and really no demand for trailbalzer motors. So the motors are relatively cheap, and if we assume a average stroker build is in the $2500-3000 range ( check the poll) Than that would be the target for the swap.

An automatic swap would be tuff because you would have to use the GM4l60E trans. The PCM controls both the engine and trans, so it should all work on that end, but I am not sure about the compatibility with the 231 Tcase. I don't have a number for a good boneyard 4l60E. A manual trans is another story, the Colorado and canyon use an aisin trans, so a bellhousing from one of those will let you bolt the engine up to your trans. The flywheel is another story, they never put a manual trans in a trailblazer, so no factory flywheel exists. the 5 cylinder flywheels have a different pattern and will not bolt to a 6 cylinder. A flywheel is available from Self Racing for $475. If you have a 96 or later, the ECM sends data to your gauges, so yo may have to go with a cluster from and older model of your vehicle that had sensors that directly drove your gauges.

The oilpan is another issue, the engines only came with a front sump pan, and all of the jeeps require a rear sump. The pan is cast aluminum, so it can be cut and pieces welded in to make a rear sump. Motor mounts will have to be fabricated, but the chevy motor has arms sticking off either side of the block similar to the Jeep mounts. Here is a picture that shows the oilpan and engine mount.


Image


The thing with the red cap is the lower radiator hose connection. looks like it is in a good place for a jeep.
So in the end i think it could be done for about the same price as a stroker, and by the way the later versions were flex fuel compatible.


With a stroker you are building a stock engine to get maximum performance, with the Vortec you are starting with a stock engine that has performance similar to a stroker, so you have someplace to go with it.

That's my opinion, what do you guys think?
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by shawnxj »

what's the overall length of the pan? gm has a good habit of building modular engines lately and i wonder if a ls pan can be modified to fit the 4200. kind like it's the same width and you just need to make it longer kinda thing then you could get a rear sump pan and just lengthen it instead of having to butcher a pan and then weld it all back together and hope for no leaks
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Plechtan »

Well here is one idea:

Image


This guy makes them, but wants like $600.00 for them

Image


This one looks really cool, but i don't know how much it costs:
Vortec_Oil_Pan_01.jpg
Some people take 2 5 cylinder pans and weld them together, i don't have a picture though.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by shawnxj »

interesting idea....if i decide i'm not impressed with my stroker if i ever finish it maybe i'll try that instead of a 5.3 swap
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Plechtan »

Depending on the model of the 5.3 I think the 4200 will out perform it. I finally found a dyno chart on the engine alone.


here you go:

Image


The dark numbers are the 2005 and earlier, the light numbers and graph are the 2006 and up. Torque looks about the same, but does not drop off as fast on the later engines.

Maybe not as much peak torque as a stroker, but the torque curve is almost flat, more than 250 ft/lbs from 1,500- 5,000 rpm I guess VVT is good for something.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Jim K in PA »

Peter - I was VERY tempted to do exactly this swap in my LJ. One of the advantages of staying with an inline engine is the ability to keep the trans & transfer case in the same position, something you cant do with a V8 swap. No need for changing drive shaft lengths. However, the electrical/ECU interface crap is all the same as a Gen III/Gen IV V8 swap.

What is the weight of the 4200?

Novak's adapter will let you bolt this engine up to any I-6 Jeep trans (AX-15, NV3500, NSG370).

The oil pan and flywheel issues also dissuaded me from going this way. Too much to deal with for not enough advantage over a stroker, IMO. I really wanted a Gen IV V8 in my LJ, but will be building an aluminum headed stroker.

But I would love to see what a 4200 does for fuel economy in a TJ/LJ.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Plechtan »

The 4200 weighs around 400lbs

You do not need any adapters to bolt the Vortec 4200 to the AX or NV3550 trans, the Colorado/Canyon bellhousing from the I5 will bolt to the trans and the engine. GM uses an Aisin trans as well.

I found the source for the fabricated oil pan, he wants about $500 for a one off, but would like the get the price around $350.00 if he could get some quantity. The Flywheel was available for $275, but the guy doesn't make them anymore I am working on a new source but figure in the $450-$500 range. So yea you would spend about $1,000 between the pan and the flywheel. the belhousing should be cheap in the boneyard.

I was up on the FSJ site and the popular swap is the Chevy 5.3, 4l60E, NP241C. if you went with the automatic the flywheel problem goes away. I think the 4200 blows away the 5.3 in the performance department.

As for your stroker, I have an aluminum head on my Bonneville truck, the head was made to sell through Mopar performance, so it is CARB compliant. The problem is that it has the small exhaust ports like the 0331 head. In my experience it does not flow any better than a cast iron head. The advantage is being able to run regular gas with a higher compression ratio. you do have more material to port it, so depending on who you have e do the work it could flow pretty well.

You will get allot of torque out of the stroker, Probably more than the 4200. I would guess in the area of 290-310 ft/lbs. overall hp will be less because you are limited to less than 5400 rpm and the 4200 can rev to over 6,000.

Since the aluminum head costs about $2k, and the rest of the stuff is $2-$3k you will end up with 5K or more in your motor. You may be better off with a low mileage 4200 and a turbo with 6-8 pounds of boost. Probably similar money.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Jim K in PA »

Thanks for the insight Peter. I read your build thread for your Bonneville truck. VERY cool project. I want to get out on the salt someday, but I am afraid of catching salt fever . . . ;)

As to the ACH, I am aware that it is basically a copy of the 0331 head but with a heavier deck. I am not looking for more flow, or substanital hp numbers. I would like to get to 260hp and 300 lb-ft running on 87-89 octane fuel. I want the engine to be able to haul my rig up long grades without pinging and having the computer pull back the timing to the point of substantial power loss. I want the engine to last a long time, so the up front cost is justified for my purposes.

As to a turbo 4200 swap, I suspect the details will make it a much more frustrating path, and the thermal management will become a headache (long pulls under load with A/C, etc.). I'll give up the 50-75 additional hp that the blown 4200 would likely give me. If my LJ was just a toy to fool around with on weekends, a blown 4200 would be a bloody hoot!
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Plechtan »

Jim K in PA wrote:Thanks for the insight Peter. I read your build thread for your Bonneville truck. VERY cool project. I want to get out on the salt someday, but I am afraid of catching salt fever . . . ;)

As to the ACH, I am aware that it is basically a copy of the 0331 head but with a heavier deck. I am not looking for more flow, or substanital hp numbers. I would like to get to 260hp and 300 lb-ft running on 87-89 octane fuel. I want the engine to be able to haul my rig up long grades without pinging and having the computer pull back the timing to the point of substantial power loss. I want the engine to last a long time, so the up front cost is justified for my purposes.

As to a turbo 4200 swap, I suspect the details will make it a much more frustrating path, and the thermal management will become a headache (long pulls under load with A/C, etc.). I'll give up the 50-75 additional hp that the blown 4200 would likely give me. If my LJ was just a toy to fool around with on weekends, a blown 4200 would be a bloody hoot!
The head will allow higher compression ratios without knocking, the rule of thumb is 2 points for a aluminum head over a cast iron one. The Renix does have knock detection, but i do not believe the ODB1 AND ODB2 have a knock sensor so they cannot retard timing.

As for your towing issue, towing takes HP, which is a combination a specific amount of torque at a specific rpm. Check your gears and tire size and the speed you want to tow at. See how that all relates to your HP/tq curve. Probably @ 65mph in 4th gear you want to be near your hp peak. I say 4th gear because hopefully that is the gear you will be in going up a steep hill, on the flat you would shift int 5th and you RPMs should drop about 30% So if you were @ 3600 in 4th your RPM should drop to 2400 in 5th. The stock 4200 has 275 ft/lbs but makes torque well over 5,000 rpm. so the stock 4200 would tow better than the stroker , but would require lower gears to allow the engine to operate at the higher rpm's where the HP is.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Jim K in PA »

Plechtan wrote: The head will allow higher compression ratios without knocking, the rule of thumb is 2 points for a aluminum head over a cast iron one. The Renix does have knock detection, but i do not believe the ODB1 AND ODB2 have a knock sensor so they cannot retard timing.
The OBDII does have knock detection. The fault codes are P0325 and P0330. The kock sensor is mounted on the passenger side of the block on my 2005 4.0
As for your towing issue, towing takes HP, which is a combination a specific amount of torque at a specific rpm. Check your gears and tire size and the speed you want to tow at. See how that all relates to your HP/tq curve. Probably @ 65mph in 4th gear you want to be near your hp peak. I say 4th gear because hopefully that is the gear you will be in going up a steep hill, on the flat you would shift int 5th and you RPMs should drop about 30% So if you were @ 3600 in 4th your RPM should drop to 2400 in 5th. The stock 4200 has 275 ft/lbs but makes torque well over 5,000 rpm. so the stock 4200 would tow better than the stroker , but would require lower gears to allow the engine to operate at the higher rpm's where the HP is.
My Jeep has a 6 speed with a 0.84 overdrive. RPM in 6th now is about 2300 @ 65mph with 4.10 gears and 33" tires. RPM in 5th (1:1) would be about 2750. I am very comfortable with these speed/RPM numbers. Shortening the final gearing will start to seriously impact cruising speed fuel consumption. It's all a balancing act, isn't it? :lol: The stroker should make more than adequate torque at that RPM range to haul the truck up a hill, but dropping to 4th will net me another 28% of crank speed (HP) if I need it. Speed and efficiency will vary with the driver's right foot!
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by SilverXJ »

No Jeep 4.0L has knock detection since the last Renix system. That thing you say is a knock sensor is the ignition capacitor.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Jim K in PA »

SilverXJ wrote:No Jeep 4.0L has knock detection since the last Renix system. That thing you say is a knock sensor is the ignition capacitor.
Thanks - I stand corrected ;) . My apologies Peter. I was given incorrect information (by a mechanic and fellow Jeep enthusiast). Interesting that the Jeep OBDII code listings still include it, even for the Wrangler. I guess no one ever edited the list to reflect the difference in the 4.0.

Why was it not included in the later systems? Too much background noise from the OEM piston slap? :lol:
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by Cheromaniac »

A Vortec 4.2 I6 swap into an XJ would be an interesting project but I can't really see any advantage when a 4.6 stroker (well, mine anyway) produces more torque from idle to over 4500rpm. Personally if I was going to do an engine swap at all, it would be an LSx V8 displacing at least 5.7L. With a bellhousing adapter it would bolt up to my AX15 without any problem.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by 604rail_king »

for all the effort and cost to swapping in a GM 4.2 VS a "drop-in" stroker, personally id only consider a GM 5.3-6.0 v8. something like a LM7/LQ9 are fairly common and low dollar. i just wish the XJ frame was stronger as i hear its common to twist them with warmed up v8 swap.

the way i look at it, is if my 4.6 stroker fails and i feel like selling my xj ... i can swap back in a cheap 4.0 in a weekend.
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Re: Vortec 4200 vs a stroker.

Post by SilverXJ »

Frame stiffeners
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