Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

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gustave42
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Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by gustave42 »

I've made a simple 4.5 stroker with 93 4.0 from a XJ and my old 258 YJ parts.
For now, I run the 258 stock intake with a MC 2100 carb and stock 4.0 cam.
It work... but I want a little more (again and again).
The port on the 258 intake is'nt as big as the port on the 4.0 head, figure that I'm loosing power here.
I'm thinking to take the 4.0 intake, plug the 6 injectors hole and make an adaptor plate to bolt my MC 2100. Good idea or not?
Think that I could expect more power with this set-up?
Any other suggestion?

About cam, wich cam is the best for an 4.5 stroker with a carburator?
Think it was'nt the same that recommande for EFI.
And does it make big difference having good cam?

Thanks for your help :worship:

p.s. sorry, my english is'nt so good :doh: , I'm living in quebec, Canada
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by lafrad »

I would stick to looking at Carburated Intake manifolds. the fuel injected manifolds are not designed to flow fuel through them, and you can get poor fueling, puddling, bad things.

with enough patience and a bit of tuning the carb should be no problem working with the stroker.

The Fuel Injected camshafts are designed to have low-overlap and good vacuum signal, as that promotes better drivability for the sensor system that Jeep uses. They do make much more carb friendly cams... Look at Comp/Crower on some of the level 2 and 3 sized camshafts.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by gustave42 »

So I've done some big mistake putting 4.0 cam for my carb stroker :doh:
Does 4.0 and 4.2 cam are interchangeable?
Better put my 4.2 cam or someting like comp cam 68-231-4?

About the intake.
You said that I'm loosing time trying to put my carb on stock 4.0 manifold?
Better keep the 4.2 intake?
Should I expect a big gain of power with an expensive clifford intake?

Some one here run an carburated stroker? Witch set-up do you have?
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by Plechtan »

For an intake , look at Clifford
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merc ... _Code=J258

I think Offy may have made one for your application also. The cams are interchangable between a 258 and a 4.0 The only issue would be a 2000+ cam which uses the thrust plate. If you have one of these you need to remove the plate and go back to the older design cam and timing set.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by gustave42 »

I've take a look on clifford intake, looks great but they are single plane.
Make some research on the net, and every one tell that a single plane intake is'nt the best for low end torque and cause rought idle. Supose to perform better at high RMP like drag racing... not very good for a trail rig.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by Plechtan »

I do not believe any of the jeep or other 6 cylinder intakes are dual plane . Normally dual plane intakes ate used on V8 engines, the primary are sent to the cylinders through 1 plane and only half of the intake is used. This keeps the air speed up. When you open the secondaries, they go to the other plane and double the airflow to the cylinder.

So if yo do not want a single plane intake, you probably have to get rid of your current intake.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by gustave42 »

Plechtan wrote:I do not believe any of the jeep or other 6 cylinder intakes are dual plane . ....
So if yo do not want a single plane intake, you probably have to get rid of your current intake.
:doh: sorry! I don't know anythig about single or dual plane
Juste don't want spending money on the wrong intake.
Thanks for the information.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by lafrad »

Dual plane intakes are used to reduce the amount of "crosstalk" between the cylinders on overlap at low rpm. with V8's and big cams, there is almost always a cylinder on overlap when another one is starting its "intake" stroke. The "Intake" stroke pulls backwards on the overlap cylinder, along with across the carb... reducing the amount of fresh air/fuel mix you get.

On the I6, there is MUCH less chance for that... you would have to be running a MONSTER overlap cam.

I would bet you couldn't tell a difference between a single and dual plane intake with the same carb on each....
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by gustave42 »

So I don't look for dual plane intake anymore... anyway, think it does'nt exist for I6 :roll:

So, clifford make two interesting model 47-4500 and 47-4520, I don't really understand the difference between both.
Gonna do some research about it.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by lafrad »

It would be an easy test with that intake that takes a 4-barrel carb...

"dual plane" on the I6 would be the front 3, and the rear three.

You could fab up a "wall" for a 4 barrel carb in there... block the front 3 from the back three... put a primary and secondary on either side... and give it a run.


Then take the "wall" out and give a go for another run. I have a feeling the "single plane" will probably be better over all RPM, as it will give a better signal to all barrels of the carb... keeps things moving better.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by IH 392 »

You probably want something like this.
http://www.offyparts.com/product_info.p ... ucts_id/74
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by Plechtan »

gustave42 wrote:So I don't look for dual plane intake anymore... anyway, think it does'nt exist for I6 :roll:

So, clifford make two interesting model 47-4500 and 47-4520, I don't really understand the difference between both.
Gonna do some research about it.

The 47-4500 is for the pre 1991 heads. the ports are lower. If you have a 1991 and up HO head you need the 47-4520.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by gustave42 »

Plechtan wrote:The 47-4500 is for the pre 1991 heads. the ports are lower. If you have a 1991 and up HO head you need the 47-4520.

Thanks for detail!
More clear now
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by eliv1 »

Hello Gustav,

I run a Fuel Injected 4.5L Stroker, using a 68-231-4 compcams camshaft,

this engine used to run for a while on a stock 258, port matched to the 7120 4.0L head, with an MC2100 carb aswell (1.08 Venturi). allthough the EFI is much better on all aspects, i couldnt really feel any massive power gains.

I would stick with the 258 intake, port it to match the head ports, and use the right fuel nozzle, (should be around 49-51, every engine feels diffrent).

if you feel rich and want to invest, you can go with the offy, or a clifford intake, and match a holley truck avenger 470CFM carb, nothing bigger then that.

if you have any more questions, i'd be happy to answer.

Eli.
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Re: Carburated Stroker, intake and Cam question

Post by 1bolt »

The primary function of a dual plane intake is to increase the air velocity through the carb venturi, AKA "carb signal" this can be done by dividing the intake so each cylinder sees only half the intake manifold (in any combination), to it has half the plenum volume to draw on thus increasing the air speed through the carb.

Increasing carb signal gets you much better throttle response, idle quality and off idle power (low and lower mid range torque is improved substantially) this is because the higher air speed means better atomization of the fuel, and also more accurate metering of the fuel. There's also a small "secondary" inertial ramming effect (tuning effect) just like there is when you lengthen the intake runner or make it smaller...

Image
That is the famous Edelbrock RPM Airgap (for one of my Ford small blocks in this case) it is a dual plane, the air gap lets you more clearly see the runners coming off the split plenums. The two inner runners go across to the opposite bank than the end runners, so the banks are not actually split. Cross talk or reflected waves are so chaotic and unpredictable IN PRACTICE for a street application that they are rarely a major part of manifold design in V8's... The RPM Airgap is hands down the best dyno'd dual plane intake for almost every V8 out there and it achieves this by lengthening the inner runners by crossing them over allowing them to be longer than they would be if the manifold just split each bank from the other. Basically wave tuning took a back seat to inertia tuning, which is the norm for most intakes. Excepting F1 and other ultra high dollar racing where they run in very predictable and steady RPM ranges ... Wave tuning is too hard to get right for very small power gains, while inertia tuning (think siphon effect) is very easy to get right and offers more power over a much broader RPM range.

That edelbrock is a so called 180* you can also split a single plane intake (a so called 90* intake) or divide the secondaries from the primaries for each cylinder by dividing the plenums and the runners all the way to the port, which is a so called 360* intake (you can also reduce the size of the intake runners or the total volume of the intake manifold in any combination to achieve the same goals with varying effects on upper RPM horse power)...

Offenhauser makes a "360*" intake for AMC 6's
Image
Image
this is one I have laying around, the entire manifold is split so that when the primaries are open only about half of the intakes total volume has air and fuel rushing through it, which means the air speed at low engine RPM's is dramatically increased. I mean DRAMATICALLY, I've never found good dyno comparisons of this intake but I would bet that it's worth 30-40 lb-ft of torque off idle and probably kills 20hp at the upper end of the RPM range. In other words it should be a great intake for a Jeep...

A few notes: making your intake runners bigger (matching the 4.0 ports) will improve UPPER RPM HORSE POWER while reducing lower RPM power... If you make a port flow more CFM by increasing cross section, air speed at lower RPM's will be reduced (which gets you less inertial ramming) while airspeed at higher RPM's will be increased. Also You really only need to pay attention to dual plane intakes for a 4bbl carb, a 2100 Autolite/motorcraft (I'm a classic mustang guy so that carb will always be an Autolite 2100) is a 2 bbl so the stock 258 manifold will be fine.
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