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Roller Cam and Lifters

Performance mods and Advanced Stroker discussion.
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Flash
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Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by Flash » March 6th, 2008, 9:30 am

[Note I split this off from the KB piston thread, as it's an interesting topic all by itself]
jsawduste wrote:Diamonds are forged not cast.

ZDDP has been an issue since SG/SH when the oil companies stared reducing levels.

Diesel CI, while still reduced (by diesel standards) is much more fortified then SJ.

Did you know that the Comp Cam and Crane additives are repackaged GM EOS. Which is still available under the AC-Del co name ?

The I6 has a prov-en know rpm design. With proper lubrication a stroker will last as long as a stocker. The benefit of the roller is to induce a more severe cam dynamics. Something this engine doesn't need based on it`s design parameters and limitations.

That last statement is kinda miss leading.........and just not TRUE.

First of"induce a more severe cam dynamics" i take it you mean it would make more power......thats a good thing :D
But reading farther on down you statement, you taking about the roller being designed for High RPM with our 4.0L/strokers won't live at.....Ummm True ;) Would you consider a full size Buick, Cadillac or Lincoln town car to be.....a high rpm race car........No, but they all us a roller cam and lifters........

Lets use your cam for and example......274 duration and .480" lift
With a roller cam we can close the exhaust valve sooner and delay the intake valve opening latter.....= less over lap = more bottom end torque then your cam................
I can close the intake valve(IVC) at the same time as your cam........= Same DCR
I can open and close the intake and exhaust valve must faster(allowing the valve to be at full lift longer) then any flat tappet cam could even dream of......and will live!!!! The longer the valve is open in it full lift state, the more cylinder fill and or more top end HP
Now, that means that my cam would have less duration.......lets say it 264* compared to your 274* and has the same lift .480"
If my eng was built identical to yours, except the cam, my cam, would be smaller then yours and make more torque at the same rpm and more HP at the same RPM.......O here is and added bonus!!!!!!!!! I WOULD GET BETTER EMISSION THEN YOU!!!
There is many reason why almost(all that i know of) all auto manufacturer have switched to roller cams....... and better controlling emissions and having some power left over........Is a big one
Mind you this is not a 7000 or Even a 6000 RPM cam!


Flash.
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."

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Re: KB pistons

Post by gradon » March 6th, 2008, 11:14 pm

On this side note Flash: I never said anything during the development of the roller cam, as I was still learning about strokers. I think it was awesome that you and others got the ball rolling on it and I would've been willing to pay $400-500 for it already ground with lifters (way more than the $180 I paid for the mopar 30 w/ lifters), but just couldn't float a little less than my stroker budget on the cam alone.

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Re: KB pistons

Post by 1bolt » March 7th, 2008, 9:53 am

I'm still convinced that we could find someone out there to machine a billet roller cam with or without custom grind... for a lot less than a grand.

The Lunati Voodoo at least if you believe their own press, already offers a lot of the performance advantage of a roller...at a lot less cost. So the only major advantage remaining to the roller is reliability...

I can rebuild a stroker for the cost of one of those roller cams so it makes no sense from even a reliability standpoint... The only thing left that makes a roller worth wild then is lower frictional losses... Not a big deal, and certainly not worth it in a power to dollars sense.
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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by 1bolt » March 7th, 2008, 10:17 am

I felt this should be split off the KB piston topic. Flash when you have time can you post all the roller cam specifics you've gathered? Including the lifter info? If so I'll arrange it at the begining of this thread and maybe we can revive the discussion a little.

I wonder if we could find someone with a CNC lathe who can take a steel cam billet and mill a cam blank or finished grind.
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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by Flash » March 14th, 2008, 6:06 am

1bolt wrote:I felt this should be split off the KB piston topic. Flash when you have time can you post all the roller cam specifics you've gathered? Including the lifter info? If so I'll arrange it at the begining of this thread and maybe we can revive the discussion a little.

I wonder if we could find someone with a CNC lathe who can take a steel cam billet and mill a cam blank or finished grind.
I will try try and dig up some of info on this.......any thing specific you would like to know?

Flash.
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by 1bolt » March 14th, 2008, 2:23 pm

I was thinking maybe you could repost all the info you had, just so this forum would have it, never know someone else might want to take the ball up and keep it rolling. You had names and numbers, the parts numbers for the roller lifters that fit the AMC I6 and the mod that was needed to get them into the engine.

There's probably some good reason why the blank needs to be cast into a "blank" instead of just using a hardened steel billet and programing a CNC lathe to cut it to spec...

It seems to me any fair sized machine shop with a CNC lathe could completely manufacture the cam in either a finished grind or with lobe circles so it could be custom ground...

But again not knowing that much about Cams, I don't know if a Cam needs some level of flex to work properly (like rods do) so maybe billet steel is too hard or there's some other reason. If it needed to be it could even be machined from forged billet... I bet that wouldn't have a Harmonic problem :)
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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by fedrusion » March 14th, 2008, 6:12 pm

I think the reason the blank is sugested to be cast them machined is that whomever would be doing the work for the first few would be making this so they could produce many more, casting the blank will make the end product significantly less expensive than a billit cam. I wouldnt have any problems using a billet cam over a cast one because of the density diferences between cast and bar steel. I dont think I would want to pay the bill for a billet cam exen from a larger quantity run. Of coase anything as a prototy will be more expensive than most will want to pay.

Does anyone have any specs for what would be desired for a roller cam profile. I will have to look into what capabilities we have at work.

A forged billet would be nice and much stronger than either a casting or machined billet.

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by Flash » March 15th, 2008, 1:02 am

1bolt wrote:I was thinking maybe you could repost all the info you had, just so this forum would have it, never know someone else might want to take the ball up and keep it rolling. You had names and numbers, the parts numbers for the roller lifters that fit the AMC I6 and the mod that was needed to get them into the engine.

There's probably some good reason why the blank needs to be cast into a "blank" instead of just using a hardened steel billet and programing a CNC lathe to cut it to spec...

It seems to me any fair sized machine shop with a CNC lathe could completely manufacture the cam in either a finished grind or with lobe circles so it could be custom ground...

But again not knowing that much about Cams, I don't know if a Cam needs some level of flex to work properly (like rods do) so maybe billet steel is too hard or there's some other reason. If it needed to be it could even be machined from forged billet... I bet that wouldn't have a Harmonic problem :)
I will dig up all the spec's i have but lets first start with the lifters...........This idea couldn't even begin with out a FIRST figuring out how to get a roller lifter in thru that tight area.....let alone attach the roller lifter so that they stay put.

A flat tappet lifter must rotate in it bore or it will FAIL ...........a roller lifter must stay still in it bore so that the wheel can roll up and down the cam lobe.
This has been the hang up from any body going any farther then the statement "It sure would be nice to have a roller cam in our 4.0L/strokers"
There is just no room in there for the flat plate type Roller Lifter (like what is us in the small block Chrysler engs.....and a lot of others)
Many thru out all kind of thought and idea how we could make this work, including my self..........But all would require special made roller or special machinging to make it stay put in the bore.
Then Delk(a member here!)Came up with the home run!!!!!!!
And he can explain it better then i.........and hopefully will post up about it.

Basically it is AMC big block Roller lifter(Hyd) and it hold a part of lifters from rotating by a steal plate, or strap if you will, at the top of the paired lifters.

Delk got a set of these lifters and started experimenting on his spare block....and found a way to make it all work out just fine.

One of the other guy....which i believe is here also, got a hold of Joe at Roto Faze(I will dig up the proper spelling an address later :doh: ) and started the ball rolling......But didn't have the time to dedicate to this project, and kinda sorta got past on to me.

We ended up sending Joe 3 different cam for evaluation, 258, a 93 and 99 4.0L What we found was that the 258 and 93 4.0L were the same casting except that the 4.0L didn't have a lobe for fuel pump.................The 99 #1 cam jurnal was larger and us a cam plate to keep the cam from walking back and forth instead of the cam spring and button of the 98 and older.

We also found that the up to 98 us a different cam sprocket attachment then the 99 and newer...........It been two long but i believe the 99 and newer us a key way in the shaft and and the 98 and older us a pin to keep the cam sprocket in time with the cam.
So since you can us a 98 in a 99 with the addition of the spring and pin.......But you can't us a 98 and older in a 99+ because there is no provision for cam thrust plate that replace the spring and pin set up in the earlier ones it was decided that the new "Hyd roller cam" was going to be designed off of the 98 and older, with the fuel pump lobe added (because it wouldn't cost any more to add it) for those that would be using a carb on there eng.

NOTE: the after market cams are designed the same way(Minus the fuel pump lobe) they say for 98 and older 4.0L but when you call then up they say you just need to us the 98 timing chain, sprocket W/the spring and pin set up!

As far as what kind of stock Joe would be using, will he would know better then i so i left that up to him......I know its not cast, but what spec of material.....I really don' t know.

Joe @ Roto-faze has built many one of a kind roller cams From flat head fords to V6 Buick 12 syl flat head and V8 Ferraris and Maserratis as well and antique vehicles such as a Model A Ford or a V12 Cad that he put into a '34 ford coupe and ran on the EL Mireage Dry lake bed.

Joe make all kinds of stuff,...like a "point" distributor that he clames will turn a eng at 10,000 rpm with out a miss.........Built the original "ISOPORT" BLOWER MANIFOLD FOR THE OLD 392 CHRYSLER HEMI............He even build custom conecting rods(No, don't even want to start down that road :banghead: )

He is not much of a Internet guy, he like to talk on phones and mail you info ..........his buddy did set up a Internet sit for him last year but there wasn't much on there then.
here is the like if you want to go check it out

roto-faze.com

One of the biggest cost of the cam processes is the cutting of the distributor teeth on the cam shaft it's self.........

I will come up with prices and part numbers tomarrow but thats a good start.

Flash
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by Flash » March 15th, 2008, 1:09 pm

Here are the spec for owning a Hyd Roller Cam..............I copy and pasted from the conversation on naxja back 07/19/2007 on the Roller cam.

ALL THE NUMBERS ARE IN...........

This is what it will take to own a roller cam.
there must be 6 orders Before Joe will start.
Joe said that there must be at least 50% down on all 6 cam blanks

The price from Joe is: $485.25 for the cam blank.(%50 would be 242.63)


The first Cam grind shop that Joe recommended is in California

"SCHNEIDER CAMS" There # IS 619-297-0227, Talk to Jerry.
Price.... ......... $450

East coast(Florida) Then Crane was the
recommended cam grind shop.

Crane Cam's: talk to Chase Night at 386-252-1151 ext.#402

Cam Grind $468.00, (any profile) Chrome molly push rods "$80.00",
V8
Hyd Roller lifters ( set of 12)...Chase said that he would give us
the good guy discount $337.00..... .. is actual words were
the "installer discount"!


OK now to make the price PERFICTLY CLEAR!!!

ROTO- FAZE CAM BLANK W/ DISTRIBUTOR GEAR CUT .........................485.25
CAM BLANK GROUND IN TO WHAT EVER CAM PROFILE YOU DESIRE!!!........450.00 TO....468.00
CHROME MOLY PUSHROD (IF NEEDED, DO TO HEAD DECKING OR DIFFERENS IN HIGHT
BETWEEN ROLLER LIFTER AND STOCK FLAT TAPPET LIFTER..................................80.00
AMC V8 ROLLER LIFTERS (SET OF 12) ............................................337.00
TOTAL........................................................................$1,272.25 TO 1,370.25

I for got Joe's number..........If some one was wanting to buy a single cam. Joe said that he would.......BUT it would cost more......But, as i have said before, thats his specialty, is building one of a kind cams and what not!!!!!!

Joe @ Roto-Faze Ignitions and Equipment
23136 Mariposa Avenue, Torrance, California 90502
(310) 325-8844 or Fax (301) 539-1828

For any one interest in this endeavor........Joe quoted me a 4 to 6 week turn around for his work and then how ever long it would take at the cam grinders................

I'm sure delk, will add his info soon...............

Like i said before, the road has been marked........It just needs some one to pave it!!!!! :D :cheers:
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by fedrusion » March 15th, 2008, 1:16 pm

I am sure this has been covered already, but , I was wondering why we couldnt use a standard cam blank made for the I6 and have the custom roller grind on it then use the the Hyd Roller lifters?

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by Delk » March 15th, 2008, 1:32 pm

Here is how to get the roller lifters in to the block. The biggest obstacle was the cast in webbing in the upper lifter gallery. Unfortunately you can't install the lifters as a pair like you can with a normal V8, I had to cut the tie bar off a pair of AMC lifters so you could install each lifter individually instead of as a pair. For test fitment I just used the cut up tie bar but if this gets off the ground I was planning on making my own guide plates.

First carfully cut the tie bar off the lifter pair without damaging the lifters or guide pins. To install them one lifter must be installed first followed by the tie bar. When installing the second lifter the tie bar must be held up on the free side and the second lifter installed so it goes into the tie bar and lifter bore at the same time. It is tricky but not hard if you have three hands, needle nose pliers and several dental picks. The tie bar is now trapped between the lifters in the bock. With normal operation it is imposable for the lifters to fallout of the tie bar. Even trying to get them to come loose I would have to one lifter almost completely out of the block.


Image

Image

This is just my opinion but there is some risk in modifying the tie bar but I don't feel it will hurt anything. The only reason for the tie bar on lifters is to keep them inline with the cam when it is on base circle and when it is at the peak of the lifting ramp. The thing to remember is that the roller is flat and will naturally align itself to the face of the cam when it is opening or closing. I hope this makes sense to someone besides me.
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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by Flash » March 15th, 2008, 1:48 pm

fedrusion wrote:I am sure this has been covered already, but , I was wondering why we couldnt use a standard cam blank made for the I6 and have the custom roller grind on it then use the the Hyd Roller lifters?
This is purely an assumption on my part :| but the tremendous speed in which the valve is opened and close is vary hard on the cam and would brake a cast cam......even if you could regrind the cam to a roller profile........Which you can't, as the wide lobe of a roller cam has already been remove from the flat tappet cam.

Flash
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by Flash » March 15th, 2008, 3:44 pm

Thanks Delk,

Here is a picture of a couple of Joe's Cam blanks........so you get a better idea of what a cam blank is and looks like!
Image

Flash.
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by fedrusion » March 16th, 2008, 8:34 am

Flash wrote:
This is purely an assumption on my part :| but the tremendous speed in which the valve is opened and close is vary hard on the cam and would brake a cast cam......even if you could regrind the cam to a roller profile........Which you can't, as the wide lobe of a roller cam has already been remove from the flat tappet cam.

Flash
Ya, I didn't really think about the differences required so that the flat tappet lifter will be made to rotate properly where the roller does not until after I posted. Thinking about it now it makes perfect sense.

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Re: Roller Cam and Lifters

Post by 1bolt » March 17th, 2008, 8:39 pm

so not to beat a dead horse but why was it determined that a roller cam has to be extra hard? and How did we arrive at the conclusion that only a full on custom made roller cam blank is the only way to make it happen? I admit to not paying that much attention when this was discussed on the list. But I don't remember anyone bring up these possibilities (probably for good reason). But still worth wondering about...

I'm especially intrigued by the idea of custom machining the cam to spec with a CNC lathe. And forged billet would take care of two things... It would probably be so stiff that the Cam harmonic issues would go away (or at least move up higher in the RPM range) and be hard enough so the roller wouldn't wear prematurely.

Imagine for a moment... If the roller cam had all the selling points of a normal roller cam, but was so stiff and tough, that it also allowed our engines to rev into 7,000 RPM range...

Now THAT would be worth some bucks...

I bet with a few of my junk cams laying around I could model the cam we want in 3D with lobe circles ready for grinding.
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Simon
Looking for a 232 crankshaft see my want ad: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=1292
http://www.jeepstrokers.com 94 XJ Stroked lifted locked. 89 MJ restored Work truck, 88 YJ going on third build up and second Stroker.

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