Stroker noise, valve noise, no oil on rocker

[DaKing]

This is what I got from the company that sold me the parts:

STAGE III STROKER KIT
Icon 4032 Forged Dish Pistons -21cc #IC944
Cast Piston Rings #E667
Scat Enterprises 9000 Series Performance Cast Steel Crankshaft 3.895” Stroke #9-4.2L-3895
Connecting Rods 4.0L 242ci 6.125” Reconditioned
King Connecting Rod & Main Bearing Set

STAGE 3 CAMSHAFT KIT
Bullet racing custom grind (.490in .+488ex lift. 266/272 advertised duration. 214/218 duration @ .050 lift. 114LSA)
Sealed Power lifters
Comp Cams dual valve springs
Comp Cams retainers
Valve locks
EnginePro timing set.

[jeepxj3]

Part number on the Comp Cams Dual Valve Springs?
Do you know the installed height?

[DaKing]

I bought the complete kit from Clegg Automotive

Stage 3 Stroker kit
Stage 3 Cam kit
and Larger valves (intake / exhaust)

http://www.cleggengine.com/stage-iii-4- ... -1c-r.html

I took a 1991 engine and all those parts to a machine shop / engine builder. He put together the short block. He ported the head.

I then installed some headers and a 2000+ intake. Along with all the other stuff. Engine sat for about 2 years, as I was restoring the truck.

I really don't know the specifics of the indvudal parts. I will call Clegg and ask about the springs.

Thanks for your help

[SilverXJ]

You really need to check clearances on the valve train and measure the actual load on the valves. If the valves are that high in load that they are bending the pushrods the rest of the valve train isn't going to live long.

[I6FAN]

How much lift are the stock rockers good for? Some engines use a modified stock-stamped style rocker arm when using higher lift cams. I think their called long slot rockers. Not sure about how that relates to the Jeep engine, so maybe others can chime-in.

[Russ Pottenger]

Double check the specs on those springs. Especially since you said it was a dual spring.
I'm unaware of Comp having a spring/retainer for a 4.0 unless you do LS valves.
These engines don't need a bunch of spring pressure, and the last thing you need
to worry about is killing a cam.

Seems to be a decently priced kit that includes good upgrades like IC944 forged pistons
and a good aftermarket Scat crankshaft, but part of the package unless you upgrade, you
get a plain cast ring and no mention of ARP rod bolts installed the the rebuilt 4.0 rods.

[DaKing]

found invoice in email
"CAM-V-4.0LS1 Jeep 4.0 oversize valves (set of 12)"
"rods with upgraded ARP bolts #4.0L-6.123”,"


I6fan, I was wondering the same

SilverXJ, I'll have to research how to do that, or just take my running truck to my engine guy for measuring.

side note, I got a 3 layer victor head gasket. the first gasket was 1 layer. the new victor looks thicker. should i run that, or buy another 1 layer?

thanks

[Russ Pottenger]

I'm guessing your Victor gasket is thinner than your one piece gasket.

The Victor is .043 and if your one piece is a Felpro it should be around .051

BTW, the top of your pistons look normal (other than the beating marks ) for a engine that has spent
any time idling.

[DaKing]

Ok, think we found the problem.

My engine builder says the springs are just very stiff, and it's a performance thing. Normal.

Talking between clegg and my builder. Finally talk to a person who works in machine shop at clegg. I explain my issue of bending push rods. He thinks for a little bit, and tells me they have built over 14 engins with the same parts, and no bent rods. Says could be the spring pads wore not machined down, but doubts that is the problem. No way you can install the springs I got, on a head with out machining down the pad...

So, I call my builder. Ask how much was the spring pad cut down to? " cut the spring pad..?" He says. Nobody said to cut the pad down... Turns out my builder found a way to install the beefer springs with out modifying the pad. Must have been a real bitch to install the springs the first time. He was telling me they are under a lot of tension..

[Russ Pottenger]

This is a frustrating post to read. (none if it directed to writer/owner of engine)

After putting on my Sherlock Holmes hat, and giving what you wrote some thought,
I'm guessing the inner spring could have been in coil bind because of the inner step not being
machined with a ID. spring seat cutter.

Regardless of the parts provided (right or wrong) it's the engine builder who is responsible.
If you hand him a set of springs and retainers, its up to the builder to determine if
#1. Will it fit the head properly?
#2. Will it provide the correct spring pressure for the chosen camshaft it's getting matched with?
#3. Will it be able to be installed at the correct installed spring ht. and correct open pressure and be a safe distance
from coil bind?

You kinda get the idea that you just cant start throwing parts in a engine. I was just giving a couple examples of what
goes into installing a valve spring. And that doesn't even cover obvious things like making sure at gross valve lift your
retainer will have enough clearance from the valve seals.

A final thought on bent push rods. When a push rod bends, 99 times out of a 100 its because something broke that caused it to bend, or improper parts and engine assembly.
Example. If a valve hits a piston due to improper cam timing, not enough piston to valve clearance, not enough guide clearance and you stick a valve in a valve guide, you over rev and float the valves, a broken rocker arm, .... and so on. all these situations are just some of the reasons for push rod failure.

Hope this helps remind some of you guy's to put into perspective how important the details are and more critical they become as your engine build has lesser similarities to a stock production engine.

Russ

[jsawduste]

I have serious disrespect for those whom receive solid information and choose not to follow it. Even if that is following the underlying tone of having hired a hack to do his work. The OP should be wise enough to see the shortcomings and move on to an alternate shop. At the first bent PR I would have been asking the builder some serious questions.

Russ has a lot more patience then I and he ought to be commended for it.

There is an ignore function. Use it if my comments offend you.

[jsawduste]

Sorry Dino, no.
I`ve read and re read the posts and while there is some attempt the general apathy I cannot get around.

First bent PR I`d been talking to the engine builder and then seeing mallet marks on top of the pistons would have sealed it. That is evidence enough that whomever built the engine was a hack.

Clegg most likely sold a quality product.........I have no experience with them.........That product should have had some instructions or guidelines for asm. included. If they were furnished they were ignored by all the parties. Sound engine build practices should have been recognized at the very least.

Our beloved Hesco sells valve springs that they call for an installed height of 1.7x and a seat pressure of 115. Have yet to find a set that would give seat pressures of 115 without an installed height of 1.8x. I don`t use much in the way of Hesco springs.....

With the comments the OP is writing I do not think the issue revolves around $$ as a major factor. The best suggestion I can make is to have a NEW engine builder talk directly to the parts supplier/tech. Or at the very least have the engine builder approach the asm process with some common sense. Have the OP send me his engine and I`ll rebuild it from top to bottom for only machine shop and parts costs. Russ, I am sure would be happy to take on another job.

On a much higher level there are many well respected folks that are critical of strokers because of the reputed reliability issues. When posts like this come up and the owner/engine builder are clueless. My wish is for them to take a different approach for making power rather then further tarnish the reputation of the I6 stroker..

No, we don`t need the spend the $9,000 that some engine builders are getting for stroker builds but we sure as hell need something better then what the OP has.

Frustration builds opportunity........Look at Racetech for example.

[Cheromaniac]

First bent PR I`d been talking to the engine builder and then seeing mallet marks on top of the pistons would have sealed it. That is evidence enough that whomever built the engine was a hack.

Totally agree with you there. I have zero tolerance for incompetence and sloppiness, and I would have been spitting feathers if that was my engine!

The best suggestion I can make is to have a NEW engine builder talk directly to the parts supplier/tech. Or at the very least have the engine builder approach the asm process with some common sense. Have the OP send me his engine and I`ll rebuild it from top to bottom for only machine shop and parts costs.

Excellent suggestions and a generous gesture on your part to rebuild the OP's engine.

On a much higher level there are many well respected folks that are critical of strokers because of the reputed reliability issues. When posts like this come up and the owner/engine builder are clueless. My wish is for them to take a different approach for making power rather then further tarnish the reputation of the I6 stroker.

I certainly expect the engine builder to know better and it does my nut in when I hear about stroker failures caused by any combination of poor machine shop work, mistakes made during assembly, wrong parts selection, improper break-in, incompetence, and sheer stupidity.

we sure as hell need something better then what the OP has.

x1,000,000

[jsawduste]

Thanks Dino.......

The OP has all the info he could ask for. The ball is in his court.

Let`s move on.

[SilverXJ]

Tread cleaned up. Keep it civil as possible people.

DaKing, there is a lot of good information her for you to consider. There is also a lot of unknowns in your engine.

I wouldn't trust your engine builder as far as I could throw him. Bent push rods are not a normal occurrence in any 4. stroker. Simple put the flat tapet cams we run do not require that high of a pressure not will they live under it. Your builder should have checked the install height, the seat load at that height + open load and then adjusted the spring seat for correct load. Most aftermarket springs for our head are not meant to be installed at the stock height of 1.64". Even if installing larger/stiffer pushrods fixes the bending problem it is not fixing your real issue, binding or very high spring pressure. The bend pushrods are merely a symptom of the problem, not the problem.

After hearing what your machinist said, what he did to the pistons and the overall mess of the build you need to start measuring and checking things yourself or get an opinion from another engine shop.