Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Performance mods and Advanced Stroker discussion.
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Torqsplit
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by Torqsplit »

*moderator, sorry for the looong response, might not really belong in this thread. posted for continuity but feel free to move it. -Torqsplit*

Sorry to cause any confusion. Any search here for cam/lifter failures will likely cover most of this in great detail.
However, I'll do my best 'jeepxj3'.
SB-Chevy(Gen 1) lifter dia=0.842, SB-Ford(windsor)=0.874, SB-Chrysler(LA)=0.904, AMC/Jeep 4.0=0.904
The AMC/Jeep-Chrysler 4.2(258cid) and 4.0 engine all use Small-Block Chrysler style 0.904" diameter lifters(and probly other AMC engines that I'm not aware of). Often the very same part# is spec'd for ours & the V-8 depending on the mfr. These were the largest(widest) lifters of the 'big-three's' early small block V-8's at the time and offer many benefits to valvetrain performance and durability. The only real drawbacks to this larger diameter are additional weight and cost. This larger dia provides a greater surface area on the face of the lifter for the cam lobes to contact, thus allowing the use of wider cam lobes as well, to distribute the applied loads over a larger area which generally equates to increase load capacity and/or decreased wear for a given scenario. This wider lobe achieves greater leverage on the face of the lifter to initiate rotation of the lifter in its bore. This extra width also permits the lifter to accommodate more aggressive lobe profiles without binding /excessive wear. This is, and has been a major beef of mine (and possibly many others?) with current aftermarket cam options. If you can find one laying around, mic the width of the lobes on a factory cam (or when you take it out). Cast cam lobes will vary in exact spec, but they are generally wide enough to take nearly full advantage of the width of the lifter face. If you've found a nice aftermarket cam choice from any of the big name suppliers, often with great cam profiles, you'll find that the lobe widths are much narrower. In my research into this over the years I have discovered that most of the suppliers for cast cam-blanks (or cam-cores) deliver them with lobes that are essentially a generic SB-chevy width. The lobes & base circles are correct for our engines, but the widths are markedly narrow for our application. I have personally spoken with Crane (whose products i still run), Comp and Lunati. I have also spoken to multiple smaller companies that do custom grinds and have yet to find a source for "quality" factory-width cams in anything other than factory-grinds. Sounds like some of you may have found a supplier? So I have given-up and accepted that to get the cam profiles I prefer, I will likely have to change cam/lifters when nearing the 30k mile mark on THIS engine. Granted, everyone's success and setups are different.

So here's the heart of the matter: Take a drink coaster or a napkin on your coffee/dinner table and place 2-fingers very close together from directly above near the center of the napkin and try to turn/twist it. Certainly, it can be done. Now take those same two fingers and place them further outside near the edges of the same napkin and turn it. Much easier? Flat-tappet lifters must rotate in their bores to wear evenly and to produce any expected service life. The wide factory-style lobes are like having your fingers on the outside of the napkin, narrower aftermarket cam lobes provide reduced-leverage to rotate the lifters like having your fingers more near the center of the napkin. In addition, the bulk, rather ALL of the wear now takes place in a smaller, more focused surface area of the lifter face, where it is the weakest. Take one apart, look inside and its basically a little metal bucket. Highest load bearing ability with the load applied at its most peripheral edges. Constant loading in the center and it will essentially 'cave-in'. I'm now on my 3rd cam in this engine with both prior failures due to a lifter failing to rotate and ultimately wiping a cam lobe. This issue is further accentuated by low zddp oil that is now common, more aggressive cams, higher spring pressures and any underlying valvetrain problems that may exist in ones setup.
In speaking with one of the cam mfr's, it was mentioned that there must be an inherent problem with trying to modify this engine platform, as SBC's operate with this lobe width with "no problem, even with way wilder cams and under much higher valve-spring pressure". True. And argue that how you like, i could only agree given that those cams are paired with a lifter dia that was designed to accommodate it. Employing that width lobe in an engine that has a 7% larger dia lifter is condemning it to early failure. They are mismatched parts. And of course... :deadhorse:
*Discalimer: I have no problem with SB-C's or SB-F's. I like anything that runs good!. Especially my hotrod Jeep! I greatly appreciate this forum. Meant no offense to anyone :cheers:
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by jeepxj3 »

Thanks.
On your 3rd cam, that sucks. What valve springs were you using? What were the VS specs?
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by Frankenstien »

((On your 3rd cam, that sucks. What valve springs were you using? What were the VS specs?))

jeepxj3


Now that's an awesome question I was about to ask too, because I hear a ton on these sites about running springs other than what the manufacture of the cam has available to save a buck or "those are better". Now i am not saying that's the case here simply more my own observation on the interwebs and one asks for a lot of trouble taking the "savings" route when you can buy a cam lifter and spring kit all from same company that makes it.

:smack:
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by Russ Pottenger »

My recommendation to anybody concerned about their flat tappet camshaft goin south, is to have
the camshaft nitrided.
Comp does this in house. It will add a week and around $150.00 to your cam cost but is well worth it.
With a ZDDP additive and the correct valve spring, this will come close to eliminating any camshaft failure.



Russ
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by nicpaige »

Torqsplit wrote:That is a terrible shame. Brand new, clean slate, fresh-canvas design and they fail to make a provision for one of the biggest short-comings of all the original cast iron heads on these engines? Come on! Who did "E" consult on the needed improvements for the design of this head anyway?? With the way things are going with oil quality and metallurgy of current cams & lifters, changing these parts out isn't going to happen any LESS frequently! :doh: Disappointed. "IF" a provision were made for this (enlarged push-rod holes) I would be almost delighted to take an afternoon to pull and inspect the lifters for condition/ wear pattern & proper rotation. It would be SO great to be able to replace a ~$50 set of lifters proactively, to maintain a good cam in healthy working condition before problems arose. I could have spared myself at least the last tear down due to cam/lifter failure, and potentially future problems associated with running .904 dia SB-Chrysler lifters( :rockout: ) on the SB-Chevy lobe-width's (< .842), that all the major cam mfr's want to force on us. :bs: Thanks. Sorry. End of Rant.



Maybe I am missing something but couldn't these holes be opened up by a machine shop to the size you want?
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by Jim K in PA »

nicpaige wrote:Maybe I am missing something but couldn't these holes be opened up by a machine shop to the size you want?

Yep, and it can be done without the need for a machine shop.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by Torqsplit »

My first cam/lifter failure was with a big-valve head i was running when I built this engine. The head came assembled and equipped with what i later discovered was a far higher spring-rate than i could possibly have needed for my cam. I was running an early version of what is now the Crane 260-2 (stamped "262" then), with who-knows-what springs that turned out to be 340+lbs/in, as measured after removing the head. I have always maintained the stock rev-limit so there was no need for this high spring rate, IMHO. I should have checked these & swapped them out before installing the head, but I got impatient. Live & learn. #2 intake and #5 exhaust lobes were wiped, with the #5 tappet being worn completely through the face. Thankfully all the pieces/ fragments were still in place, just riding there. Looked like a starburst in busted glass the way it wore thru. Probly hammered itself after the lash opened up. If i still had any of these i'd post pics, but there's plenty enough of that carnage on here elsewhere! The lifter for #2 appeared to be pretty recent and wasn't as bad. Noticed some subtle but increasing valve lash sounds returning home from a long highway trip that progressively got worse within ~40miles. By then i knew what was happening but still had to get home in the wee hours of the morning, so it got run about 70miles from the onset of noise to when i parked it. Engine had 28k miles at that time.

The second failure was #4 intake lobe, with another 260-2 cam but with the lighter, recommended springs: Crane #96806
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=26269 *This page is for the "-16" part# for V-8's and lists a damper, however the "-12" for the 4.0 doesn't spec the damper, only the single spring. Same spring but no spec sheet on the web page for the -12.* This failure was likely due to diminishing zddp levels in the oil i was running, unbeknownst to me. Until this most recent cam, I had never added any zddp other than initial cam break-in, and most of that was covered by specific break-in oil. Otherwise, Rotella-T 15-40 was my go-to oil for daily driving. I kept it changed, but learned after the failure that Shell had been consistently reducing zddp levels in the diesel oils as well. Another tough lesson. Engine had ~55k miles then. *Bobistheoilguy.com has proven to be a priceless resource for all sorts of oil info!*

I researched boring the pushrod holes on my 7120 head before installing it most recently and found that to gain adequate clearance to pass the lifters thru, you're testing your luck on hitting the water jacket or coming out the sides of the head where the spark-plug reliefs are. The material just isn't there, or not consistently enough to open-up all of them, so I didn't brave it (if anyone has successfully done this, I'd love to see some pics or a write-up). I just feel its a shame where the "E" head could have provided this feature straight from casting molds that, without Edelbrock's assurance that it is safe to do, you'd now be left to try your luck once again on a new & expensive aluminum head to create easy access to the lifters. Or add this to the list of things you're paying your machinist to do to your new cyl head. I understand that this is realistically a minor concern for most folks interested in this head. Port design, chamber design and simply being Aluminum are the bigger selling points. However, for those looking to do back-to-back dyno runs to find the best combos, it sure would be nice to be able to do cam changes and leave that puppy sitting right there on the block, all nice and evenly torqued down. How many times does anyone really want to perform that torque sequence in one weekend? Just my 2-cents.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by BADASYJ »

In about the same time it took you to type your posts hear you could have drilled the push rod holes in the new head bigger yourself. If by chance you break into a water jacket you just gotta have it welded up. Not that big of a deal. It's damn near the same as complaining about them not offering the head painted a certain color.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by Cheromaniac »

BADASYJ wrote:In about the same time it took you to type your posts hear you could have drilled the push rod holes in the new head bigger yourself. If by chance you break into a water jacket you just gotta have it welded up.
The pushrod holes are far enough away from the water jacket for that not to be a concern.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by 6TIME »

Cheromaniac wrote:
BADASYJ wrote:In about the same time it took you to type your posts hear you could have drilled the push rod holes in the new head bigger yourself. If by chance you break into a water jacket you just gotta have it welded up.
The pushrod holes are far enough away from the water jacket for that not to be a concern.
Ditto, water is not the concern. I went thru the outside of the head while drilling out the pushrod holes on a 7120 head.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by justjerald »

Went to the Grand National Roadster Show yesterday here in pomona ca. Got to meet edelbrock jr. and get an autograph. I also got to see the head up close and personal and asked what they were going to go for. Guy say it's about $1200 and thats ready to bolt on. It's suposed to be much better than hescos $2000 head that's not ready to bolt on. The specs are not givin as of yet as to which type of valve springs you're getting. All they say is that they are stronger than stock. I took a couple pics but I don't know how to upload them on here from my phone.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by nicpaige »

Hmmm getting cheaper with every post...me likey! :banana:
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by Root Moose »

$1200 is a good price point. Any higher than that and potential buyers are going to feel like they are being gouged. Cheaper would be better of course but at this price I won't feel like I'm being bent over.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by nicpaige »

I sure hope there are plenty available, my build will be waiting on this head for completion. Hope the current 4.0 can hold out awhile longer.
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Re: Edelbrock 4.0L head soon to be available.

Post by nicpaige »

Well I just got off the phone with Summit and ordered part # EDL-50169 Edelbrock Jeep 4.0 cylinder head. They said it should arrive in two to three weeks. We will see. Price was steep at $1489.97
It says it utilizes the earlier spread exhaust ports so does that mean I need the single outlet header or can I still use the dual outlet?


Application Dyno Emissions Satin Satin
Performer Jeep 4.0l Inline Six pending 50159 50169
Edelbrock Installation Note INSTALLATION NOTE: Recommended spark plugs: Champion RC12YC or equivalent 14mm x 3/4" reach with flat gasket seat. Recommended gasket for 4.0L: Edelbrock #7348 or Fel-Pro #26211PT. Deck thickness: 3/4".
#50169: Flow Numbers as tested by Edelbrock's SuperFlo SF-1020 flow bench @ 28" H2O
Valve Lift .100" .200" .300" .400" .500" .600" .700"
Intake 66 123 179 221 241 237 -
Exhaust 63 103 127 144 151 155
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