Crower 44243 Cam Questions

[gdl]

First off, Hi Everyone!

I have a 97 Wrangler, stock 4.0, currently with a bit over 177,000 miles. While it's still running great, I have noted recently that it's rattling more noticeably so I figured it was time to start thinking about a rebuild. And as long as I'm rebuilding it I figured I may as well stroke it. I've spent the last six or eight weeks reading on this site and deciding on the build I want to do. I've decided to do the long rod recipe with KB944 pistons and also decided after reading about the issues some have had with wiped cam bearings that I wanted to keep the stock valvetrain. However, I also decided I wanted a little more cam so after looking at the few cams that will work with stock springs I've settled on the Crower 44243.

Is there anyone here who has experience with this cam? I've searched and the only member I came up with was retlaw01xj but I haven't really seen any posts much after the initial build. I'm wondering how the longer term experience is.

I'm also wondering about whether I should install this cam straight up or if it'd be better to advance it some. I've already ordered and received the JP double-roller timing set so I'll have the ability to advance or retard it as needed.

Does anyone have any desktop dyno runs with this cam that they could share? From everything I've read it seems that this cam should have very good low to mid-range power with a usable range up to about 5,000 rpm. I'd be curious to see what the desktop dyno predicts for this cam straight up, as well as advanced or even retarded a few degrees.

[Cheromaniac]

The Crower 44243 cam has a short enough duration that I'd recommend you install it 4 degrees retarded. On a 4.6 poor man's stroker I've projected outputs of 250hp/317lbft installed 4 degrees retarded and 242hp/318lbft installed straight up.

[gdl]

Thanks for the reply, I never would have guessed that retarding it would be the hot ticket. That'll move the power band up in the RPM range, right? Do you happen to have any estimate on how much the band shifts?

[Retlaw01XJ]

I have about 5,000 miles on my 44232 cammed 4.6. Runs decent, no problems. Could use a better tune as it's a little rough at cold starts and low rpm. Average 14-15 mpg with most of my driving being a 3 mile commute to work. I never drove it with the stock 4.0, I can't compare the power. Does have great torque for general driving and impressive passing power when needed!
Future mods will be cold air intake and eventually a fresh tune from Ryan.

I get the best results on Dyno 2003 with 6 degrees retard..... I thought that was odd. Figured I had a setting wrong somewhere, so I don't trust it to be accurate! I'm using 0331 head flow data on a Mopar slant six block since I couldn't find a Jeep 4.0 engine file.
Peaks at 4500, drops to 4250 at 0 degree cam timing. I believe I was at 2 degrees retarded at install with stock timing chain set, so that's where it is.
The 44243 performed about the same as the Comp 231-4 cam and better that the 232-2 in the sims. Again, I won't say it's accurate! Dino, do you get similar results between the Crower and the Comp?

[Cheromaniac]

Thanks for the reply, I never would have guessed that retarding it would be the hot ticket. That'll move the power band up in the RPM range, right? Do you happen to have any estimate on how much the band shifts?

It's about 200rpm higher if you retard the 44243 cam by 4 degrees.

The 44243 performed about the same as the Comp 231-4 cam and better that the 232-2 in the sims. Again, I won't say it's accurate! Dino, do you get similar results between the Crower and the Comp?

I get similar HP numbers with the 4-degree retarded Crower 44243 and the straight-up CompCams 68-232-4, but the Crower produces more torque at lower rpm. The 231 cam does better than both of the aforementioned cams above 4000rpm and is about the same as the 232 at lower rpm.
The stock '96-'04 cam produces similar results as the Crower 44243 so if you already have that stock cam, it's probably worth keeping.

[gdl]

Thanks again for the replies.

Just like seemingly everyone else I've been going round and round on which cam to use. I planned to get a new cam regardless, just due to the mileage on my stocker. According to the compression calculator, the build I'm planning with KB944 pistons, zero deck, .043 gasket results in a 9.7 SCR.

I know I want to keep the stock valvetrain so I considered a stock replacement cam, the 505 Stage 1, and the Crower. Comparing the DCR of all those installed straight up, the stocker gives me 8.37, the Crower 8.05, and the 505 gives 7.74. I'd like to retain the ability to run regular grade fuel so I was originally leaning toward the 505 but after all the horror stories I read, I ruled them out. I figured the stock cam would probably require at least mid-grade and likely premium. The Crower at 8.05 is likely good on mid-grade but maybe iffy on regular. I'm liking the thought of retarding the Crower, at -4 degrees I come up with a DCR of 7.83, which is only .36 higher than the calculator shows for a completely stock 4.0. If the power is truly similar then that makes me feel even better about my choice.

I placed my order with Crower yesterday for the cam, standard lifters, and ZDDP paste and oil additive. I'm accumulating parts now, plan to start the actual build later this summer, I'll post my results once I get it all done.

[gdl]

And now for the promised update. I've had the stroker up and running for four days now and so far I'm quite pleased. So far I have 275 miles on it and it's running really well. Haven't gone past 3,000 rpm yet but the torque production to that point is impressive, a noticeable improvement over the stock 4.0. My mileage sucks so far what with all the slow-speed stop-and-go on-and-off throttle I've been doing, getting about 12 mpg so far. I'm confident that will improve when I begin driving it a little more normally. I started out with about five gallons of 93 octane premium in the tank and have been consecutively running near E and adding fuel just a few gallons at a time, weaning myself back in grades. On premium, no pinging. After running it down near empty and adding four gallons of 91 octane mid-grade a couple of times, still no ping. I've now run that down near E and added four gallons of 87 octane regular a couple of times and still no ping. This is in the 100 degree Texas heat we've been having so it looks like I'll be good on the 87.

Now for my specs:
I ended up with .030 over KBB 944 pistons on stock 4.0 rods, connected to a Scat crank.
Had the head shaved .008 to clean it up, still running stock springs and valves. Very minor port work on the intakes to match to the gasket.
Decked the block .022, leaving the pistons .005 in the hole.
Used a Victor head gasket, quench ended up at .048
I ended up setting the cam straight up. Was originally trying to do the -4 retarded but could not for the life of me get the marks to line up right so I finally decided it wasn't worth the hassle.
Static/Dynamic compression ratio ended up at 9.61 / 7.98

Only had two minor issues:
1. Threw a check engine light, P1391 crank position or cam position sensor intermittent signal. I knew we'd begun to mash the crank sensor against the firewall when we were removing the engine so I figured we'd messed it up so I replaced it. Still got the same code so then I went back and did what I should have done in the first place... Research... Originally I thought I had the distributor indexed right, it looked to me like it was all lined up right and the mounting slot lined right up with the bolt hole. Grabbed the trusty FSM and looked up the distributor installation procedure, ran through that and ended up having to cut off one ear of the mounting tab in order to get the bolt in. Problem solved, no more Check Engine light.
2. At the end of my initial drive to seat the rings my oil pressure went to zero whenever I came to a stop. Still had pressure while driving so I nursed it home and... Research... I already knew the oil pressure switches have a tendency to go bad in these but mine was working fine before pulling the engine so I was fearing the worst, thinking I'd managed to wipe out the cam bearings. Went ahead and got a mechanical oil pressure gauge and did a temporary install of that and found that my oil pressure was just fine. Bought a new pressure switch from NAPA, still have the exact same problem so I either got a dud switch or something else is causing it to read low. I made myself a T fitting so I could hook up the mechanical gauge permanently just for peace of mind, I'll eventually go get another switch from the dealer to see if that'll fix the dash gauge but for now I'm not going to sweat it as long as I also have the true reading from the mechanical gauge. Dash gauge reads consistently 10 to 12 psi low.

I'll try to update more as time goes on but for now I'm calling it a success.

[Retlaw01XJ]

That's good news!
I've put about 5k miles on mine in the past year since the build. Always put 89 octane in it until I cheaped out a few months ago and tried 87. It runs fine on it, so that's what I've been using this summer. My mpg increased from about 14 to over 15.5 this summer.... guess it's finally broken in.
I replaced my oil pressure sender with one from the dealer.
It's been my daily driver (3 miles to work) and I've been very pleased with how it runs and drives.
Upcoming projects will be adding a trailer hitch and some new tires for the 17 inch wheels I scored a while ago. Also want to do some underbody paint/rustproofing for the upcoming winter.

[gdl]

Thanks for the update on yours, it's good to know you're still running well.

I've been out of town for a few days so I was only able to put another 100 miles on it, I'm up to 375 now. Before I left I finally took it out on the highway to run at a cruising speed of 65 mph for a few minutes. It was hard to tell for certain, what with the wind noise, tire noise, and a slight exhaust leak I've developed but I thought I was hearing just the faintest hint of ping at a steady cruise. I may have been imagining it, it was so faint. At any rate, I was still running my original Bosch Platinums spark plugs so I thought I'd give a colder plug a try and see what it would do. Picked up a set of NGK bkre6 plugs and put them in, went back out on the highway and no longer heard what I think I was hearing so I'm going to go ahead and stick with the NGKs. On the oil pressure gauge, I was doing some research and the only thing I found that wasn't just to replace the switch was one guy who replaced the ground strap from the firewall to the block. That's a cheap and easy thing to try so I'll give that a shot tomorrow and see what it does.

[gdl]

Update #2:

I'm up to 2,200 miles now, still running great. The additional ground strap made no difference in the dashboard oil pressure reading so I guess I'll be getting a new switch from the dealer eventually. I'm running a mechanical gauge as well and it shows everything's fine so I'm not worrying about it for awhile.

I normally keep my Jeep in Denver so I drove it up here from the Dallas area a week ago. Battling the wind the whole way I averaged 15 mpg. I have 4" lift, 33" tires, and 3.73 gears so the wind has a drastic effect. I'm actually more accustomed to driving this vehicle in Colorado so it's easier for me to compare the performance against the 4.0 now than I could in Texas. Low and mid-range torque is noticeably improved, on most hills on the highway where I used to resort to 4th gear I can now stay in 5th and maintain speed or at worst lose a few mph. The power is really good from just above idle to 4,000 rpm. Above 4,000 it feels much less happy. It'll rev to red line but it feels to me like its running out of breath once you get past 4,500. The good news is that even short-shifting at typically no more than 4,000 I'm usually out-pulling the traffic around me.

When I was in Texas, about 600 feet elevation, every once in awhile I thought maybe I was hearing just a hint of detonation on 87 octane regular. It was so sporadic I'm not sure if it was really there of if I was hearing something else entirely. Now in Denver, at 5200+ feet, I'm running the 85 octane regular we have here and haven't heard even a hint of detonation.

Gas mileage is improving, I took a 220 mile drive this past weekend, about 50% highway at 75mph, 40% highway at 60-65 mph, and 10% city. Got just a hair over 19 mpg so I'm pretty happy with that.

[RenoF250]

Good to hear, I intend to build basically the same thing but hopefully will not need any off the head and only intend to take the block down to .010". If you went down .022 wouldn't that be .0005 out of the hole for a 0.0425" quench? What did you use for a head volume after taking .008" off in your DCR calculations?

[DaemonForce]

Wow, good to see I'm not the only one that took interest in a mild cam. I bought this a few months ago but still haven't had the chance to install and degree the cam. I could probably retard the cam 4º to squeeze the highest possible output from this pattern but I still need to get around to installing the bearings and cam plug. I'm expecting no less than 250BHP and 23MPG. It sounds like I'm pushing it but most of my driving is very light long distance highway. I would probably benefit more from a cute little 4cyl but part of the appeal to this engine is my ability to peel into busy traffic from a dead stop. I'm just not able to part with that. I'll probably be able to post my findings about this cam within next month.

[gdl]

I'm baaaccckkk...

Sorry guys, I've been lax and just haven't gotten back to this site for awhile. I just rolled over 30,000 miles so I thought I should pop back in and give an update. I see there was a queustion about how I calculated my DCR numbers. Unfortunately it's been two years and I've lost my notes so I don't really recall how everything came out. It's still running well on regular grade fuel, getting around 14 mpg in city traffic, and I've seen a high of just a fraction over 20 mpg on straight highway runs. I've found the spark plugs make a difference in the fuel grade needed. I ran the copper NGK BKR6E plugs until just a few months ago, at which point they'd worn enough to cause a rough idle and some stumbles. I was kind of pushing it on the copper cores with over 27,000 miles, should have replaced them sooner. I'd forgotten all about the reason for going with the NGKs (the non-extended tip) and got a set of stock-style extended tip platinum plugs. With those in I was experiencing a bit of detonation on regular fuel, I guess that extended tip is just enough to raise the compression ratio enough to cause it. I wanted platinum plugs for the extended life so I did some research and came up with the NGK BKR6EGP plugs. I put a set of those in and I'm now back to running regular fuel with nice smooth operation.

It's not all roses, after a few thousand miles of running I developed what I believe is piston slap. On a cold start, revving past about 2700 rpm I get a bit of knocking sound. This goes away once it's all warmed up, which is why I think it's probably piston slap where the pistons just need time to expand a bit with heat. The goal I had in my mind when I built this thing was that if I could get at least 50,000 miles out of it then I'd feel like I'd gotten my money's worth, so once I hit that point I'll probably tear it down to see if I can figure out exactly what it is. At that point I'll probably swap the cam out for a stock cam. While the Crower cam does make great low end torque it does get a bit frustrating to not be able to rev. I've gotten to where I never go past 4,000 rpm, and actually rarely go past 3,500. It just doesn't make any usable power above that point and just doesn't feel happy doing it. The stock cam will likely require mid-grade fuel but at this point I'm ready to make that trade-off.

So, I'll try to make a point to get back to this forum more often but I'll definitely come back with the results when I do eventually tear it down again.

[gdl]

Just in case anyone with questions about my calculations is still around, I went back and recreated the compression calc. It looks like I was using 57cc for the combustion chamber volume. As to the deck height, I think I recall reading something in the past that the KB944 pistons on stock rods end up with the top of the piston slightly lower than the stock setup was. I could be wrong about that, I'd have to do more research to see if I can find that again. I do recall that when I was putting everything together the pistons were definitely ever so slightly in the hole, not above the deck. I recall taking measurements but that was two years ago and I don't remember exactly how it came out.

[optmaxx]

Thanks for the update, I was considering the Crower or the 229, but I might stick with stock now; possibly the 91-95. I haven't found much on updates for the 229, but some say that they haven't felt a huge difference in their 4.0s.