Cheaper Valve Spring Options?? (need some specs too...!)

[stroked'73]

I'm trying to find an alternative to the high priced or not-so-available mopar springs. (HA!! like everyone else....... )

Here's what I need to know:
With a stock height of 1.64, how much can we stray without needing machining - a few thousandths?
And same with the stock O.D. of 1.31 - how much one way or the other can we go before we can't use the stock reatainers? (or the 1.418 MP ones, if it still meant cheaper springs.)
Also, I'm assuming the only two retainers available that work with stock valves are either stock or the MP one's. But will the LS1 retainers work with our locks or compatible single groove ones? Because that would open up more spring options as well.
Also, does anyone know what the limit is on spring o.d. with our stock heads before it needs cutting?
I assume the inside diameter isn't an issue.

In looking through spec sheets, I've found some 1.65" install height springs that have close specs to the mopar ones and a few hundredths off on diameter too. That's what made me wonder about how much tolerance we have. I just have to imagine there's something out there close that will work for most of us with daily driven strokers and mild cams. I obviously wouldn't put anything "close" into a race motor or one that's really souped up, but for the rest of us, a cheaper option to the mopar stuff would be really cool. (O'reilly's has been out of stock for a while - called them and they didn't know if or when they'd get more. )

What do you all think??

[SilverXJ]

Here's what I need to know:
With a stock height of 1.64, how much can we stray without needing machining - a few thousandths?

That depends on what you want your seat load to be. Height/load will vary between springs. You might find a spring that has a seal load of 80# at 1.8", but may be 100# at 1.64". Also, height can be changed by changing the retained, as different retains will result in different installed heights. As well, there are some aftermarket retainers the specifically install higher or lower.

As far as what retainers will work with our valves i don't know. One question, does the retainer matter or is it the lock that is more valve specific? I now that the locks must fit the valve stem diameter, grove type and count, and the angle of the retainer.. but past that what other properties must the retainer have to work with the valve stem?

There is some one NAXJA that went with behive springs on stock valves, but its some sort of big secret and he won't let anyone know the specs.

[dwg86]

What a MORON!!! If someone has info that will help someone else and won't tell his "secret", he should be banned from the Jeep world. Does he plan on buying and reselling these springs for a profit to himself?

If I had to guess, I would look at the chevy LS1-LS6 springs. I do belive they are a beehive spring. The LS valves are also an 8mm valve with a round groove lock. I don't know where the bead lock is on the LS retainer. This would affect the install height of the springs.

[SilverXJ]

What a MORON!!! If someone has info that will help someone else and won't tell his "secret", he should be banned from the Jeep world. Does he plan on buying and reselling these springs for a profit to himself?

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=992922 There is the thread if you want to see for yourself. What gets me is that the majority of his build he got from various sites, and the one little thing that he could actually add to knowledge he won't let anyone know.

[lafrad]

Check out the hemi beehive springs, locks, and retainers.

They use a 3-groove lock, 8mm stem, and have an integrated dampers...

They just have a 1.8 install height on the hemi heads.

[dwg86]

What a MORON!!! If someone has info that will help someone else and won't tell his "secret", he should be banned from the Jeep world. Does he plan on buying and reselling these springs for a profit to himself?

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=992922 There is the thread if you want to see for yourself. What gets me is that the majority of his build he got from various sites, and the one little thing that he could actually add to knowledge he won't let anyone know.

Yeah, I'll take advantage of other people's hard work, research and idea's on building a stroker, but "my springs are a secret". If I was the owner of that board, I'd ban him. OK done venting now... moving on...

[stroked'73]

I agree - wonder how far along on his rig he'd be without others sharing their "secrets."

That depends on what you want your seat load to be. Height/load will vary between springs. You might find a spring that has a seal load of 80# at 1.8", but may be 100# at 1.64". Also, height can be changed by changing the retained, as different retains will result in different installed heights. As well, there are some aftermarket retainers the specifically install higher or lower.

That's what I was also wondering - if you had a spring that was taller than stock but the pressure worked out to be proper at 1.64 and coil bind was good and all, is there a reason that wouldn't work? There's alot of choices when you get to 1.70" springs.

As far as retainers, I assume to keep stock locks it needs to be an 8* retainer, and some specify certain valvestem diameters. Haven't looked into those too much. I did read somewhere here or naxja that the LS1 locks have the single groove at a different height than ours - which would change the install height, which could hurt or help I guess depending on the hieght of the spring. Sounds like alot of math!
Speaking of math, is there a way to figure what the seat load would be at a given height if you know the spring rate and load at install height? (In the case of a taller spring with a lighter seat load installed at 1.64)

[stroked'73]

Here's an interesting thread from the pirate site:
http://www2.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthr ... ?p=8913675
Found it while searching beehive springs and strokers (that dude got me thinking...).
It's on the second page of the thread, about halfway down - mentions Dodge magnum beehive springs, Comp 26981. Says stock retainers will work and no machining. I'll have to check those out - for all I know they're more expensive than the Mopars - which would defeat the original purpose!! Either way, there's some intersting stuff in there as well as the usual pirate B.S. Take it for what it's worth.....

EDIT: Just looked them up - not much cheaper. Top O.D. is 1.065, that's a little small for our retainers isn't it?

[dwg86]

Speaking of math, is there a way to figure what the seat load would be at a given height if you know the spring rate and load at install height? (In the case of a taller spring with a lighter seat load installed at 1.64)[/quote]

You multiply the spring rate by the difference in installed height and then add or subtract that to the installed spring rate(add if you decreasing the installed height, subtract if you are increasing installed height). For example, using some random figures... the installed spring pressure is 100# installed at 1.70 and the spring rate is 250#. You decrease the installed height to 1.64, so your seat pressure is going to increase. 1.70-1.64=.06; .06x250=15. So add 15# to the original 100# installed height, equals 115#.

To figure out open pressure, you multiply the spring rate by max valve lift then add that to the installed pressure of the spring. Using the same 100# seat pressure with 250# spring rate and a .500 valve lift cam. 250x.500=125; 125+100=225. So theoretically your open spring pressure would be 225# @ .500 lift.

You also need to make sure, whatever springs you use, that they can handle the lift of the valve without going into coil bind. I've read that you need at least .060 coil clearance at max lift. Changing the valve spring installed height will affect this also. You can google "valve spring rates", or "choosing valve springs". There are some good articles about valve springs.

[stroked'73]

Anyone ever looked into these?

Hughes Engines, vavle spring #1110:

Installed Height/Pressure: 1.660"--120#
Pressure @ .450" lift: 280#
Pressure @ .500" lift: 300#
Pressure @ .550" lift: 310#
Coil Bind: .620" lift
Outer Spring ID/OD: 1.033"/1.440"
Type of Spring:Single w/ damper

They're for dodge magnum engines, but then again soa re the mopar springs. I know 120# is a little much on the seat........

Oh, and they're like $5.90 or so each. Not too bad.
Only issue would be a finding an 8* retainer to fit?
Also, is 1.44" OD too wide for our spring seats? What's the limit there?

[dwg86]

I don't think 120 on the seat is that high, if you have agressive ramps on the cam. You need a little higher spring rate to control valve bounce.

The Mopar springs I put in my engine hit the valve cover. They are 1.420 Diameter.

[gradon]

Where'd they hit on the valve cover and what year cover are you using? How did you modify it, if you did?

[dwg86]

Where'd they hit on the valve cover and what year cover are you using? How did you modify it, if you did?

They hit on the side. Metal, 2003 valve cover. I had to "clearance" them with a hammer.

[SilverXJ]

Only the rear most spring hit on my 2000 steel cover. Clearanced it the same way.

[stroked'73]

My cam is the comp 231 - probably not too aggressive ramps. (However, comp specs a spring for that cam that gives 110# on the seat and 317# at .500 lift.)
The Hughes springs are about .02" larger than the mopar retainers - is that enough of a difference to not use the mopar retainers?
(My motors' an 89 - not opposed to clearancing the cover if I need to - thanks for the heads up!)