Lifter recommendations

[Torqsplit]

Hey folks, been surfing this forum for over a year and really enjoy all the great, in-depth info here! I'm now installing my 3rd cam in 70k miles on an otherwise reliable and great-performing long-rod stroker. I've had failures using 1st Crane lifters and now Rhodes anti-pump. Both failures were in conjuction w/ wiped cam lobes so i can't say for sure wich happend first, the cam or lifter, but in both cases the tappet had obviously stopped rotating and a groove had started to wear into the face of the tappet. Well aware of oil issues and both cases were with the same H-262 crane cam. So aside from blowing big$$ on a 505-roller, i guess i'm jus gonna plan on changing cams every 20k miles! Whats the consensus on quality lifters currently available?? Any input is appreciated!

[Torqsplit]

Note: not the "same" cam for each case, but both cams were H-262's. Thanks.

[dwg86]

What valve springs are you running? Did you check for coil bind or valve spring retainer hitting the valve guide?

[SilverXJ]

Check for coil bind, retainer to guide interference, rocker bind on the pivot, etc.

For lifters I recommend Johnson/Hylift p/n 2011. Order direct from them: http://www.toplineauto.com/about-us.asp

[Torqsplit]

Thanks. Running Crane 96806 springs w/~90lbs seat @installed height. Definitely no binding or interference, I've triple checked all of that myself after bronze guides were installed at the machine shop to accept 0.520"+ valve lift for future cam options. Yella Terra 1.6 rockers and custom length Crower pushrods, all carefully shimmed for proper lifter preload. I'm sadly aware that the quality of most aftermarket options now is piss-poore and i've been replacing failed components with doomed ones. Thanks for the mention of the Johnson hylifts! Did a little research and they seem to show some promise. USA made at least. Whats the opinion of Crane camshafts right now as far as the castings vs Comp cams. Trying to decide between a cam from each supplier this time. Aside from using supplements, Rotella 15-40 non-synth had been my oil choice but i understand that it has been reduced in Zinc and phosphorus now as well. I wish i had pics handy but it has always amazed me after the first cam install that the lobes are so narrow compared to the stock cam! To me, this has to be the primary reason for all the cam/lifter failures on aftermarket cams. WHY are the aftermarket cams so much narrower?? i can't come up with any legitimate reasons other than less material =less cost=^profit. Sorry if this has already been beat to death but consider: most stock cams ran atleast the better part of 100k w/ no issues, on CHEAP oils! Yet we're lucky to get 50k w/ good oils and proper setups. You stand on an upside-down plastic bucket all day with your weight on the outer edges, but jump up+down on the middle of it a few times and it'll cave in on you. This is what these cams do to the lifters. and they dont get adequate leverage to rotate the lifters in the bores when they only cover the inner 2/3 of the lifter diameter. I love this engine when its right, which is why i keep rebuilding it! But some of these issues seem like they should have been corrected long ago. -C

[CobraMarty]

Stock or MOPAR cam and stock lifters, pushrods, springs and be done with it?

[dwg86]

With all the comp cam failures I have heard about lately, I wouldn't run one. Maybe try a custom ground cam (Engle, Bullet, hughes, ect.) I had an Engle cam in my stroker.

[dwg86]

What valves and retainers are you running with the Crane 96806 springs?

[Torqsplit]

I'm know i'm whining about the quality of this stuff, but i've grown to accept that if i want more than .450 lift from the stock cam i'll just have to put up with it. Granted the stock stuff is probly the most reliable. But i like my dyno sheet and bigger cams are pretty much the only way to do it w/out super/turbocharging. I havent tried contacting any of the manufacturers about lobe-width but i guess it cant hurt @this point. Been thru 2 Crane cams now and havent bothered to tell them about it (hmm...) cause its such a known problem it kinda seemed pointless. To answer questions, i am now running stock valves in the original 7120 head w/ a performance valve job w/ steel single groove retainers and teflon seals. The spring seats have been machined for matched spring-height, and cc'd chambers to ~62cc. Using this head after a ported & big-valved 0331 developed a bunch of cracked valve seats(FOR SALE!). I've built a few engines in the past for cars and motorcycles, and i've strongly felt that going the extra mile on prep & machining is the key to ensuring the full potential in durability and reliability, so i typically go overboard by most standards. That and researching parts before i buy!

[SilverXJ]

stock lifters, pushrods,

Why? Mopar lifters are expensive and no better than most aftermarket lifters. Stock pushrods aren't anything nice either.

As for the wide cam lobe cams. Try calling smaller companies that will work with you. Don't bother with Comp, Crane, or Isky. They believe that they can't get any other blank besides the one they have been using for the past several decades. Mopar does not grind their own cams, so there is someone making the cams and has access to the blanks. You could try Bullet, Engle, Hughes, or Lunati. If those companies aren't interested talk to Mike Jones of Jones Cam Designs (http://www.jonescams.com), or Harold Brookshire, aka UDHarold of Comp/Ultradyne/Holley/Lunati fame. UDHarold doesn't have a website but you can reach him by email [email protected] or phone 662-562-4933. First step is to get them to locate a core. Mike Jones found a wide lobe core for the late style cam with a retaining plate. I found the Johnson/Hylifters on my own a few years back but when I asked Mike Jones what lifters to run he said Johnson/Hylift. Go with a good oil with a good amount of ZDDP and a specific break in oil for the cam break in. Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs both make very good break in oil and oil in general.

Also, keep in mind that most after market lifters aren't the same diameter as OEM. Lunati microtrol, Comp Cam, some mystery lifter, and Engine tech measure .9036" to .9038". The OEM, Crower Cam savers(Johnson//Hylift w/ a groove in side), and Johnson/Hylfit measure .9044" to .9045". According to the FSM lifter tolerance is .9040" to.9045", lifter bore .9055" to .9065",

You also mentioned that you shimmed the rockers. While this does help in setting preload it also can correct valve to rocker geometry or make it worse. Make sure that the rocker isn't running off the side of the stem and hitting the retainer at any point during lift. I would use shims to set the geometry then pushrods to set your preload. Slightly of topic, get rid of the Teflon seals and go with the blue Nitrile seals. They seal better and last longer.

[SilverXJ]

If you want to take a look at a few lifters dissected look here: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... f=5&t=1262

[CobraMarty]

stock lifters, pushrods,

Why? Mopar lifters are expensive...

What is the price difference between stock and Johnson/Hylifters and the others?

[SilverXJ]

On a quick search the cheapest I found mopar lifters was $9.35/ea. $112 per set. IIRC the Johnson/Hylifts are $60

[Torqsplit]

Good call on the shims, as that is what was done. I'll try not to write another book here but, when i first built this engine in '02 it started as an Accurate Power kit and evolved from there w/ Hesco and various parts that i determined were the best thing available at the time. I did alot of trail running in the Jeep back then and liked the theory of roller-rockers for idle and low-rpm efficiency, where there's not as much oil-flow or valvetrain momentum and, in theory, less required lifter preload. So i got a set of the Mopar/Hesco-built adjustable rockers w/ the spacer(Harland-Sharps were unavailable during my build) and found that during the entire sweep of travel across the valve tip, the roller never traveled further than half-way across. so i put 'em on the stock head which still had the stock valves and they were the same there! So that ruled-out valve height discrepancies. So with no other alternatives i used Crane shims to jack 'em up and got the travel to sweep over the midline of the valve-tip atleast. This was on the 0331 big-valve head. Dissatisfied with those rockers, which the adjusters seized-up on so they were useless anyhow, on the second cam change I discovered the YellaTerra's which fit w/out a cover spacer. So i sozed up my new valvetrain height w/ checking pushrod and ordered some custom length chromoly's to further lighten the valvetrain. Which never sees over 5200rpm . Duly noted on the Nitrile seals, i'll be using those on the next build i guess. Very much appreciate the info on the custom cam producers. I'm doin this build this month so i'll check with them and let u guys know what i find. Interesting info on the lifter bores! Suppose thats for added lubrication on more aggressive cams? just a guess. Again, Thanks for all the input!

[SilverXJ]

So i got a set of the Mopar/Hesco-built adjustable rockers w/ the spacer(Harland-Sharps were unavailable during my build) and found that during the entire sweep of travel across the valve tip, the roller never traveled further than half-way across. so i put 'em on the stock head which still had the stock valves and they were the same there!

Tehre are 3 major theories in adjusting the valve geometry. 1) Minimal movement on the valve tip. You want the rocker to move the least in its sweep over the lift, i.e minimal arc travel, smallest wear pattern on the valve tip. 2) Rocker 90* to the valve stem at mid lift. 3) Rocker pattern centered on the valve tip. Google will reveal the details to each of these and arguments as to which is better. Unlike on a Chevy, where the rocker adjuster is on the rocker trunnion and pushrod length is very important and is factored into setting the geometry up, most of the adjustable rockers for the 4.xL have the adjuster over the pushrod. In this case you adjust valve train geometry based on shims under the rocker. Once your geometry is set them you figure pushrod length to set preload.

I'm doin this build this month so i'll check with them and let u guys know what i find.

Please do, I would be interested in what they find for the "correct" cam core.

Interesting info on the lifter bores! Suppose thats for added lubrication on more aggressive cams

I doubt it. I believe some lifters are smaller because a) if there is tight bore they still won't bind and b) Dodge V8s spec a lifter diameter of 0.9035"-0.9040", which the other lifters checked adhere to. I guess that extra clearance doesn't concern them. Personally I would like a lifter made to size for our engine, not one that is made to fit something else and just happens to be close enough for ours.