Big Valve Stroker Motor

[1bolt]

Generally speaking there are two schools of thought on the lifetime guarantee thing. Either its short term; intended to get the customer sold and then they make warranty claims a huge pain in the ass to discourage actually having to send out replacements, Generally speaking the product in this case needs to be cheap enough that they can send out X amount of replacements and still make money. This also has the basic assumption that the "pain in the ass" or "jump through hoops" part will keep the incidences of a second claim to a minimum, encouraging the "bad customer" who would actually try and enforce the lifetime warranty to buy elsewhere. This is short term in more ways than one as the poor service and cheap product will eventually result in a bad rep.

The long term model is to make something so well that claims are rare, and charge a premium for the product to cover the added time, and materials costs required to make that happen..

As the sign says "Quality, Service, Price... Pick two"

[jeepinwi]

Maize-
I'm sorry to hear about the ordeal with Thorey. Have you installed the engine into your Jeep yet? I'm interested to hear your impressions compared to the old 4.0L.

[Maize583]

Doug Thorley is out of picture. I went in the trash, where it belongs.

The new header is a Banks stainless. You don't even have to loosen up the engine mount bolt to put it in the chassis. Doug Thorely wanted $20 to ship my header to them, then $140 up-charge for so-called cost of materials in the new header, and then $20 to ship that. The whole thing was going to cost over $180. The reason I bought their header in the first place was to get the "Lifetime" warranty. Some warranty. There was a speed shop in Waterloo that I got the Banks header for $149, I drove the 49 miles and picked it up.

Anyway...enough of the Doug Thorley issue....it just cranks me off everytime I think about it.

I also found out the even though Comp Cams Magnum series claims to be guideplate compatible.....they aren't.

Here is what all 12 looked like. I developed a second ticking noise and thought to myself...here goes another camshaft. Then I thought that can't be it because I used Joe Gibbs break in oil. Then I continue to use his XP3 oil, that has 18ppm of Zinc. I have about 1200 miles on the motor, so far.

So I pulled the valve cover and these are what I saw:







I don't have any dyno numbers yet, but there is no pinging. I have the 24lb injectors with 41lbs of fuel pressure and I have the adjustable MAP sensor set at 5.45volts. The fuel economy computer is way off, it says I am getting about 23-27mpg...when you calculate it out, it comes out to about an average of 16mpg. I do alot of on-ramps on an uphill to get to work everymorning. That is a pretty accurate city and highway combination. I haven't gone through one tank on just the highway yet.

The whole goal was to give me some grunt with the light towing that I do. I took the twin engine jet boat to storage this weekend. The wind was blowing about 20-30 miles per hour, and my buddies barn is about 30 miles away and has some pretty steep inclines. It has plenty of grunt to pull my stuff. It runs WAAAAAY smoother than the stock motor ever did, and has tons more power.

I am happy with the results....

[dwg86]

Are those hardened pushrods? Maybe try Trend pushrods. I got a quote from them a while ago, but I cant remember what is was. Something like 5 to 6 dollars a pushrod.
Could you spin the pushrods when adjusting the rockers. I would think with that much wear, the pushrods would have been in a bind.

[dwg86]

Looking at your pictures, you have the guide plate tabs pointing up. Would it be better if they were down? How bad are the guide plates worn? Any pics of them? Sorry for so many questions, but I was going to run the same setup. I like the ideal of having an adjustable valvetrain, but without using a valve cover spacer.

[Alex22]

Those push rods look like just a stock replacement piece, not the case hardened ones that you are supposed to use with the guide plates. When you crank the engine over how well are the push rods centered in the guide plates?

The Joe Gibbs XP series oil is meant for track only and it lacks the detergents needed for a street engine and does not have the lifespan (oil change interval) of an oil meant for street use (Hot Rod oil, Brad Penn, AmsOil....)

~Alex

[Maize583]

Those push rods look like just a stock replacement piece, not the case hardened ones that you are supposed to use with the guide plates. When you crank the engine over how well are the push rods centered in the guide plates?

The Joe Gibbs XP series oil is meant for track only and it lacks the detergents needed for a street engine and does not have the lifespan (oil change interval) of an oil meant for street use (Hot Rod oil, Brad Penn, AmsOil....)

~Alex

Really? Apparently you didn't read the statement. I NEVER thought I was putting on non-hardened pushrods. The whole jist of the pushrod issue was that Comp Cams SAID that all their Magnum series pushrods were compatable with guideplates. I guess I read that as BEING hardnened, since you can't use any other type of pushrod WITH a guideplate.

The pushrods are from a Buick 455. My machinist called Comp Cams and asked them about them. He knew I was looking for hardened pushrods. They told him they were hardened. That is why I put them in. I did not question them, or test them.

I now have custom made pushrods from Manton. They ran $10 each.

They pushrods are perfectly centered in the guideplates. The center to center distance on the rocker studs, guide plates and lifter bores were mic'd out and are all the same, they line up perfectly. You can't keep them in the center with an adjustable valve train. That is the purpose of using the guideplates. The rocker arm will move back and forth, the guide plate keeps it from moving around. The non-adjustale rockers have a perch that ties the two arms together. This keeps the rocker arm from moving side to side.

As far as the oil...I researched it....A LOT. Hot Rod oil only has less than 12ppm of Zinc, Brad Penn has about the same as XP3...Amsoil is low in Zinc.

They all have to be listed as "For Race Only" applications because the high Zinc content does not meet EPA guidelines. It will (according to the EPA) destroy catalytic converters. So they all will be 'race only' applications.

When I spoke with the tech assistance line at Joe Gibbs racing, it wasn't an issue on the XP3 going 3000 miles on an oil change. So it doesn't have the detergents, but I will give those up for more Zinc and protection.

The more detergents that are in the oil allow you to go further between oil changes. I plan on changing out every 3K. It still has detergents in the oil, just not as much as API sanctioned oils. But API sanctioned oil does not have nearly the zinc content in it, either. Older engines didn't have high amounts of detergents, and they survived just fine. It can't be any worse than pulling apart a Penzoil motor. You have to scrape that crud off with a putty knife.

[Alex22]

FYI: Comp doesn't list Magnum pushrods for any Buick. Only the High Energy, which may be a hardened pushrod, but there is no mention of being guide plate friendly. There is a substantial difference between hardening and case hardening. As the name implies there is a casing of hardened material that is very hard over the pushrod.. I have to take the pieces to a stone grinder before trying to turn any of it in a lathe, carbide & HSS tools will barley take it off. Case hardening is usually a black coating, $10 each isn't bad for a good set of pushrods. Have you cut your oil filter open to see how much of the pushrods were caught by it?

I made the statements on the XP3 based on the literature provided by Joe Gibbs on their website. I am excited to hear that one of their techs said that it is good enough to go 3000 miles on in a street car. I will have to look into that when I get mine together. Joe Gibbs XP series oil is the only oil that we have seen actually reduce the parasitic losses in an engine. No difference in torque but it was worth a few HP when we ran it on an engine dyno.

~Alex

[Mgardiner1]

Where do you guys buy this Racing oil from? I just did a quick google for the XP3 and i see a case of twelve going for $120 and up. $60 per 3000 mile oil change seems a bit heavy on the wallet to me

[1bolt]

Agree, Joe Gibbs is a great guy but putting a non detergent oil of any kind in a normal driven vehicle is just wrong... Forget about paying 60 per oil change... the sludge build up from using a non detergent oil alone will cost you money.

Detergent is a bit of a misnomer, the additives meant to carry heavy combustion by products to the oil filter are vital for even short term engine life. And engine can sludge up in less than 30,000 miles if allowed to.

[Maize583]

FYI: Comp doesn't list Magnum pushrods for any Buick. Only the High Energy, which may be a hardened pushrod, but there is no mention of being guide plate friendly. There is a substantial difference between hardening and case hardening. As the name implies there is a casing of hardened material that is very hard over the pushrod.. I have to take the pieces to a stone grinder before trying to turn any of it in a lathe, carbide & HSS tools will barley take it off. Case hardening is usually a black coating, $10 each isn't bad for a good set of pushrods. Have you cut your oil filter open to see how much of the pushrods were caught by it?

I made the statements on the XP3 based on the literature provided by Joe Gibbs on their website. I am excited to hear that one of their techs said that it is good enough to go 3000 miles on in a street car. I will have to look into that when I get mine together. Joe Gibbs XP series oil is the only oil that we have seen actually reduce the parasitic losses in an engine. No difference in torque but it was worth a few HP when we ran it on an engine dyno.

~Alex

I don't know if your intent is this, or not. But you seem to be talking to me like I am an idiot, and don't know anything about engine building.

I don't think you have read the entire article. I know the differences in various hardening formats. My machinist said he called Comp Cams and he ordered them up for me. I assembled the valved train, and got the length I needed. I gave him the length that I needed, he found that they happened to fall in the same length as a Buick 455. He did the machine work on the head to accept the guide plates, and knew also. He is one of the premiere race engine builders in the Midwest. I believe that he called, and that is the answer Comp Cams gave him.

[Maize583]

Agree, Joe Gibbs is a great guy but putting a non detergent oil of any kind in a normal driven vehicle is just wrong... Forget about paying 60 per oil change... the sludge build up from using a non detergent oil alone will cost you money.

Detergent is a bit of a misnomer, the additives meant to carry heavy combustion by products to the oil filter are vital for even short term engine life. And engine can sludge up in less than 30,000 miles if allowed to.

Where are getting this information? Who ever said it was a non-detergent oil? It is a low detergent oil, not a non-detergent oil. It still has detergent in the oil mix, it is just about half of what the API oils have.

[Alex22]

Maize, I didn't mean to talk come across as condescending, I have kept up with this build and can see you're not just some random guy with a ring compressor and a torque wrench. Since this is a forum and there are a lot of people here to learn how to build their own engines most of what I said was for them.

1Bolt, The XP series of oil is not a non detergent oil, just a lower detergent.
http://joegibbsdriven.com/Downloads/racingoil101.pdf
There is a chart on the bottom of page six that shows XP oil as having approx 1/3 the detergents of API SM/GF-4 synthetic oil. I work at a shop that buys the stuff by the pallet at wholesaler prices so it wouldn't be as expensive.

~Alex

[Maize583]

Maize, I didn't mean to talk come across as condescending, I have kept up with this build and can see you're not just some random guy with a ring compressor and a torque wrench. Since this is a forum and there are a lot of people here to learn how to build their own engines most of what I said was for them.

1Bolt, The XP series of oil is not a non detergent oil, just a lower detergent.
http://joegibbsdriven.com/Downloads/racingoil101.pdf
There is a chart on the bottom of page six that shows XP oil as having approx 1/3 the detergents of API SM/GF-4 synthetic oil. I work at a shop that buys the stuff by the pallet at wholesaler prices so it wouldn't be as expensive.

~Alex

OK. Datz coo....I guess I am just used getting grief for building a 4.0 on the JU SF section. Sorry.

I am in good with a shop here in town that I can get the Joe Gibbs stuff for about $6 and some change a quart. That is about the same price as a good synthetic like Mobil 1.

If it saves my cams. I am all for the extra money. I HATE pulling the cams in the motor.

Although, I did make the intake a little easier to work on. I slotted out the locating hole in the bottom of the intake. Those 4 bolts under the intake are a mother to start.

Now you can start all the bolts, and slide the intake and place, just apply downward pressure to the intake while tightening the bolts. It took litterly 10 mins to put all the bolts in tighten them down.

[dwg86]

What is the status on the engine? did you get new pushrods?