Need help with best lifter preload solution!

[Bike Guy]

First off I'm new to your forum, so if this is in the wrong place, Please move it.
This is not a Stroker but I have as much $ if not more then some have invested.
Before I start with the issue, I"ll list what was just recently replaced/done to hopefully help with diagnosing the problem/solution.

This is a 4.0 in a 1991 YJ that is set-up to be a DD and do pretty extreme crawling. The bottom end of the motor has about 100,000 miles on it and is stock except for the Hesco Blue printed - High volume oil pump with a dist. lube tube. This thing runs Great (except for this problem), doesn't smoke , burn or leak oil and after these mods has 140 #'s of compression at 5300' elevation (Denver area).

* Head work (by SCH Racing Heads) = Comp. valve job, new stock rated springs, surface cut head (min.), port & polish valve pockets/bowls, Port match intake to 2000 intake man. & exhaust to Banks header, Flow test.
* Valve train = Mopar Perf stage 1 Hyd.cam (240/240 dur.-.430/.430 lift) with mopar lifters, Colyes double roller chain & gears, Hesco performance rocker arm kit, Crane stock length push rods 9.639", Mopar multi-layer Head gasket.

There is a bunch more bolt on stuff to make this 4.0 all run strong, but it's probably not important to list to solve this issue.

The problem is that after just putting a new cam in, about 3-months ago (because the last one had a shot distributor drive gear) I had one of the new lifters that would bleed down over night and clatter for 1-3 mins. while it tried to pump up or if it didn't set in the lobe over night it would start up quite and as the oil would warmed up it will start to tick. Figuring that it was a bad lifter and not being able to isolate which one, Summit sent me 12 new Crower Cam Saver lifters for replacements. After pulling the head again, cleaning all surfaces, pulling the mopar lifters, measuring all the lobes to make sure nothing got damaged, putting the Crower lifters in, measuring all the push-rods and reinstall them, then went to figure out the lifter spring preload.

This is where the problem begins, first off I knew nothing of this measurement until I started to mention the lifter problem to people/vendors, so this was never checked when originally installing this cam. SCH Heads said to check preload by putting a dial ind. (at 0) on top of the rock arm just above the push rod and with the valve at the heal of the cam release the torque on the rocker bolt until the dial indicator stops and that is your preload amount. So I tried it and it came up to about .108, we all know (from what I read of Lifter preload posts on this Forum) that it should be between .020 to .060. I did not find this very accurate since the point of the Dial ind. is not rolling on an even surface (it's distorted where the oiling hole comes thru the rocker) and yes I'm being picky, its because I know what accuracy should be (I use to sell tooling and measuring equipment to machine shops).

After seeing this I called Bennie @ Hesco to pick his brain and he said that one thing to check is that all the valve stems should be at the same height and to take a straight edge, run it from the first valve to the last and they should all be close to hitting the straight edge. Wrong the exhaust are about .014 higher than the intakes (Fricken Wonderful). Bennie also said to check the preload by putting the #1 cylinder on TDC of the compression stroke, put the rocker arm assemble (intake & Exhaust) on the push rods and finger tighten them down until the rockers do not have anymore play but the push rods can still be freely spun, now put feeler gauges between the head and the rocker arm pivot and that distance will be your preload!!

Holy Sh*t!! Does everyone have their own special way of figuring preload?

I had already read the way Crane said to do it by marking the push rod (but found that hard to get a good measurement when trying to transfer the marks to an accurate measuring device).
Then read that Crower says to measure the distance between the retaining snap ring and the top of the lifter push rod seat when the hydraulic lifter is on the cam base circle and the push rod is installed and the rocker arm assemble is torqued down! Definitely Generic, since there is NO way to get down to the lifter when the heads on.

When I did it Bennie's way I come up with about .072 on exhaust and .014 less on the intake (just checking the #1 cyl. at this point).
Now I consider Bennie to be one of the Gods of 4.0-4.2 motors, so I mean no disrespect (especially since he has helped me out a BUNCH) when I ask if this makes sense.
Isn't there a ratio issue when it comes to measuring preload at the top of the rocker arm just above the push rod compared to a feeler gauge measurement at the bolt/pivot point of the rocker? I just can't believe that those two points are a 1to1 ratio, at least I'm not seeing it.

So this is what I did today in my confused state and after reading what DWG86 had posted on the Push Rod Length Thread, I called Trend Performance and ordered one of their Push-Rod Length Checkers. I'm thinking that the only way I'm going to get an accurate reading is to use this system, especially since I already know that all of my exhaust push rods will need to be roughly .014 shorter that the intakes. Is this or what?

Now Bennie and SCH Heads said to just shim (roughly .012+) under both the intake & exhaust rocker arm pivot, now my exhaust would be like around .060 preload but the intake would be roughly .046. This just seems Micky Mouse to me and I have not found a readily available source for 5/16 washer shims in .012 - .014 thickness. Now on Bennie's defense, he said if it was his he would pull the head and redo the valve work. Just shoot me!

I'm really over having this thing torn apart, especially this Time of year since I'm a 4x4 Volunteer that helps get stranded Doctors, Nurses and emergency personal where they need to be during Bad Snow Conditions.

So the question is: Do you think the different length push rods will work or am I just opening a New can of worms and has someone cured this problem another way (that doesn't involve pulling that D*** head again)!


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[SilverXJ]

I use the dial indicator method. However, I don't set it in the hole. I set the tip either on the adjustment screw head or the body near it. Can't remember exactly at this time. But that is also on the Harland Sharp adjustable that Hesco sells...What rocker arms do you have? It doesn't sound like you have the harland sharp adjustables. I've also used the mark the push rod method in the past and it works ok. You can also count the number of turns from 0-lash to torque and get a number from that. And while using the shim method under the rocker pivot won't get you the true preload it will give you a close enough number.

Bennie's suggestion of shimming under the rocker pivot isn't a bad idea. It is the cheapest route too. IIRC you can use some hardened washers for this purpose for a Ford. I think the part number may be listed on Dino's site. You don't want to use hardware store washers for this. Different push rods would be the best bet though.

[Cheromaniac]

You can also count the number of turns from 0-lash to torque and get a number from that.

That's the method I use and one full turn is equivalent to 0.060" of lifter preload, so I prefer to set it at 0.045" or a 3/4 turn past zero lash.
As for the shims, you can get them from http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99179-1/

[bbarrett]

If you put the lifter on the base circle of the cam,( I use intake closing and exhaust opining method. I know this method is time consuming, But in my opinion this is the only way to get accurate preload.) The dial indicator directly above the push rod on same plane, You will get an accurate reading of lifter preload. Push rod length is used in some methods to set preload, But push rod length should be used to set where the rocker arm contacts the valve tip. (roller Rockers). If you are using stock rockers this usually doesn't come into play as they have a larger SCRUBBING pad. I used the cam saver lifters and set preload from .045 to .060. But be prepared these are noisy little devils at idle. I use the Ford Racing shims as they offer more of a level seat than the washers and are easier to manage getting them in and out from under the pedestal.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-6529-A302/

[Bike Guy]

Thanks for the feed backs!
My main problem with the thought of using either shims listed, is one that .030 is a pretty large shim if I'm only needing .012 to .014 for my correction. Of course right now everything is just speculation until I get an accurate & consistent measurement.
My other concern is that because of the difference in valve stem height (.014) between int & exh., if I truly find that the preload is (lets say .075 on exhaust) and I put mt .030 shim in, which brings it to .045 pl. but remember my intake is .014 less so now it's .031. I know that this is still within the .020 - .060. standard, But I've heard from a couple of people including Bennie that you want to stay .040+ to keep from having a noisy drive train. Quote: (I used the cam saver lifters and set preload from .045 to .060. But be prepared these are noisy little devils at idle.) This I didn't want to Hear, Literally!! Is anyone else using the Crower C.S. lifters and if so are you experiencing the same thing Bbarret described?

FYI for clarification: I know some people have said (on other Forums) just to shim the exhaust, I'm sure on this Forum that everyone knows that with this rocker arm style it screws the the rocker arm bridges which will shift the rocker arm position (not contacting the valve correctly).

Lets say I use shims, I'm still thinking that a .030 shim under the Rocker Arm pivot isn't going to translate to .030 preload at lift. Am I on track with this, or just completely wrong? Because to me it seems like it would just be a trial and error of putting one in check it at the push rod some how (Crane way or with the Trend Perf. P.R checker) since the Dial Ind. on rocker doesn't work with my rocker (check out pic)

Here is the info on the rockers:
Description: These rocker arms are shot peened, magna fluxed and ground to a special contour. This is the ideal replacement rocker arm where reliability and performance are a concern. The kit contains all rocker arms, pivots, and hold down hardware. Fits under the stock valve cover. Six cylinder set. (Basically they are like the stock ones, But on steroids)

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The reason I picked this Rocker Arm Set is:
* It was recommended by Bennie for my app.
* I had considered Roller Rockers, but with the cost and when I had seen the can of worms it would open (purchase of a machined valve cover spacer, a thermostat housing spacer, 2 more gaskets that could be leak issues and the fact that it's getting very tight under the hood even with a scoop - check pic)

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In hind sight if I had known of the valve length discrepancy, I would of gone for a Adj. Roller Rocker and all the mess that goes with it.

The bottom line is that I would like to have a .045 - .050 Preload on each Lifter when it's all over and not have to get a loan $ to do this (CORRECTLY).

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[SilverXJ]

I know that this is still within the .020 - .060. standard, But I've heard from a couple of people including Bennie that you want to stay .040+ to keep from having a noisy drive train.

Lee recommended .030" IIRC.

Quote: (I used the cam saver lifters and set preload from .045 to .060. But be prepared these are noisy little devils at idle.) This I didn't want to Hear, Literally!! Is anyone else using the Crower C.S. lifters and if so are you experiencing the same thing Bbarret described?

I have used the Crower Cam savers and the Hi-lift/Topline/Johnson lifters. The Crower Cam savers are the Hi-lift lifters with a flat cut in the side. I haven't done any hardness tests or metallurgical analysis on them, but based on measurements, features, size, machining quality, fit and finish they are the best lifters I have seen. I have a thread on here that compares several lifters. With either of the lifters I only had a tick for the first few seconds at idle, and it sounds like it was only one lifter. No noise at idle from the lifters as is being described. It could also be the profile of the cam that is creating the noise as I know that the popular comp cams have a bit of noise to them.

FYI for clarification: I know some people have said (on other Forums) just to shim the exhaust, I'm sure on this Forum that everyone knows that with this rocker arm style it screws the the rocker arm bridges which will shift the rocker arm position (not contacting the valve correctly).

What concerned me initially is that I had though you were using roller rockers and using one shim under one and not the corresponding rocker could cause issues. the bridge on those rockers are pretty flexible and I don't think just shimming the one side would cause any issue. However the valve contact could be an issue. If the valves were indeed ground that much lower than stock than a shim could fix the problem. Also, remember that since the shim is under the pivot point you won't see the full thickness acting on the preload.

since the Dial Ind. on rocker doesn't work with my rocker (check out pic)

You might be able to pace the indicator on the upturned body of the rocker, but that is still iffy if it will stay on there.

* I had considered Roller Rockers, but with the cost and when I had seen the can of worms it would open (purchase of a machined valve cover spacer, a thermostat housing spacer, 2 more gaskets that could be leak issues and the fact that it's getting very tight under the hood even with a scoop - check pic)

you would have only used one gasket. Between the spacer and head you would be using anerobic sealant. But thats beside the point. You may have also have needed ot purchase longer pushrods with the roller rockers.

The bottom line is that I would like to have a .045 - .050 Preload on each Lifter when it's all over and not have to get a loan $ to do this (CORRECTLY).

A set of Trend or Smith brothers pushrods would run you about $120 (IIRC) and the shims aren't that much either.

[Bike Guy]

I know that this is still within the .020 - .060. standard, But I've heard from a couple of people including Bennie that you want to stay .040+ to keep from having a noisy drive train.

Lee recommended .030" IIRC.

*Being a Newbie here, I do not know who Lee is and what is IIRC?

Quote: (I used the cam saver lifters and set preload from .045 to .060. But be prepared these are noisy little devils at idle.) This I didn't want to Hear, Literally!! Is anyone else using the Crower C.S. lifters and if so are you experiencing the same thing Bbarret described?

I have used the Crower Cam savers and the Hi-lift/Topline/Johnson lifters. The Crower Cam savers are the Hi-lift lifters with a flat cut in the side. I haven't done any hardness tests or metallurgical analysis on them, but based on measurements, features, size, machining quality, fit and finish they are the best lifters I have seen. I have a thread on here that compares several lifters. With either of the lifters I only had a tick for the first few seconds at idle, and it sounds like it was only one lifter. No noise at idle from the lifters as is being described. It could also be the profile of the cam that is creating the noise as I know that the popular comp cams have a bit of noise to them.

*This is good to hear, quite a few guys in my area (Colorado) have used them and had good luck (hence the reason I had Summit replace the Mopars with these)

since the Dial Ind. on rocker doesn't work with my rocker (check out pic)

You might be able to pace the indicator on the upturned body of the rocker, but that is still iffy if it will stay on there.

*What I may try is buying/installing a flat point instead of the ball point on the Ind.. (this would be just to verify the measurement findings I get with Trend push-rod checker). At this point I've ran across enough issues that I plan on checking, double checking and maybe even triple checking before I put it all back together. Just tired of surprises!!

* I had considered Roller Rockers, but with the cost and when I had seen the can of worms it would open (purchase of a machined valve cover spacer, a thermostat housing spacer, 2 more gaskets that could be leak issues and the fact that it's getting very tight under the hood even with a scoop - check pic)

you would have only used one gasket. Between the spacer and head you would be using anerobic sealant. But thats beside the point. You may have also have needed ot purchase longer push-rods with the roller rockers.

*This is Good info. since I just got off the phone with Bennie and was discussing returning the HD rocker set (since I hadn't installed it yet) and going with their Adj. Roller Rocker set that now comes with the valve cover spacer, I would just have to get a thermostat housing spacer and pray that it still fits under the hood.
*Why is it that you said I might need longer push rods with a Adj Roller set-up?

*I'm thinking this might be the BEST way without pulling the head to fix this. I'll just need to find one Fat Piggy Bank.


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[SilverXJ]

Being a Newbie here, I do not know who Lee is and what is IIRC?

Lee @ Hesco. IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

This is good to hear, quite a few guys in my area (Colorado) have used them and had good luck (hence the reason I had Summit replace the Mopars with these)

And those Mopars aren't cheap... but there is nothing special about them.

What I may try is buying/installing a flat point instead of the ball point on the Ind.. (this would be just to verify the measurement findings I get with Trend push-rod checker). At this point I've ran across enough issues that I plan on checking, double checking and maybe even triple checking before I put it all back together.

The flat tip might work better.

This is Good info. since I just got off the phone with Bennie and was discussing returning the HD rocker set (since I hadn't installed it yet) and going with their Adj. Roller Rocker set that now comes with the valve cover spacer, I would just have to get a thermostat housing spacer and pray that it still fits under the hood.

It looks you might have room. But I can't tell for sure how much room you have between the air tube and the oil cap. How do you even fill oil on that without removing the tube?

Why is it that you said I might need longer push rods with a Adj Roller set-up?

When I switched from the stock rockers to the HS The stock push rods were just a bt shorter than I liked. While they are adjustable they can only be adjusted so much. And the lesser the better. Seeing as how you have a high preload you may not need different pushrods. Its a wait and see thing.

I'm thinking this might be the BEST way without pulling the head to fix this. I'll just need to find one Fat Piggy Bank.

Keep in mind that the preload isn't exactly a precise measurement. Its more of just in the ball park figure. You aren't racing so you aren't trying to eek out every tenth of a second adjusting and tweeking everything possible.

[Bike Guy]

Quote: Lee @ Hesco. IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

I've called over there probably 30 times in the last 3-4 years and every time I ask a 4.0 they give to Bennie, I haven't had the pleasure of speaking to LEE. Sorry I'm a non-texter, so my abbreviation skills are poor!

Quote: And those Mopars aren't cheap... but there is nothing special about them.

Most expense they had for a 4.0 = $17.00 ea.

Quote: It looks you might have room. But I can't tell for sure how much room you have between the air tube and the oil cap. How do you even fill oil on that without removing the tube?

The Banks tube (HUGE) is pretty close to the valve cover, even with a 1", large bore spacer under the T.B.. The motor has been lifted 1 full inch at the motor mount (not a 1" lift that means 1" at the fan like most) to help the shaft angles. The oil cap actually sets a little bit back of the air tube, but pouring oil in has to be assessed with a funnel.
This pic shows the oil position a little better.

IMG_0772.JPG

Quote: Keep in mind that the preload isn't exactly a precise measurement. Its more of just in the ball park figure. You aren't racing so you aren't trying to eek out every tenth of a second adjusting and tweeking everything possible.

Old habits die hard! Use to 1/4 mile in the late 70's, early 80's in Oregon. Even thou I'm not going for a race motor, I've found that good tolerances usually will mean a long lasting Engine if you use Quality parts and do your route maintenance. That is why this urks so much, because I did everything very meticulously and just can't seem to Get Ur Done!

The head work (valves that is) is what is killing me, it sound like if SCH would of watched their tolerance much closer when they did the valve grind or that they may have taken to much off the stem to flatten them, I'm just not sure what happen at their shop. All I know is the port work looks great and by my flow #'s works great.

For now I'm just going to wait until Trend Perf. Checker comes in so I can check Preload that way and than try a double check with a Dial Ind. with a flat tip.
Depending on where my #'s comes in will kind of determine if I do custom push-rods or bite the bullet for the Hesco ADJ. Roller set-up. Right now it's time for a

SilverXJ, thanks so much for all your input!!
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[bbarrett]

I must disagree with who said lifter preload isn't exact, We use some roller lifters that only have .015 thousands travel in the plunger body, These are racing lifters (anti pump up) This measurement has to be exact.or you can understand what will happen. If you get the lifter on the base circle of the cam (Ic,Eo) It can be exact. We use a dial indicator just as was explained in my previous post. So if the measurement can supply us with 7.5 thousand's travel, I'm not seeing where the problem with being exact is a problem. And to bike guy, Why not find a small piece of metal ( it may need to be magnetized, if so then use a aluminum tip on the indicator), Lay it across the back side of the rocker, Then you will have a flat place to take your measurement. I to am very meticulous, I build motors that are way more complicated than our Jeeps are. You will find in our motors, that what we do is way more precise than what jeep did at the start.(simi round peg in a semi round hole)

[SilverXJ]

I must disagree with who said lifter preload isn't exact, We use some roller lifters that only have .015 thousands travel in the plunger body,

Is he using those lifters? No, he isn't.

[bbarrett]

Never said he was, just saying it can be exact if you take your time and realize what you are doing

[Bike Guy]

And to bike guy, Why not find a small piece of metal ( it may need to be magnetized, if so then use a aluminum tip on the indicator), Lay it across the back side of the rocker, Then you will have a flat place to take your measurement. I to am very meticulous, I build motors that are way more complicated than our Jeeps are. You will find in our motors, that what we do is way more precise than what jeep did at the start.(simi round peg in a semi round hole)

Thanks, I hadn't thought that. I think what I will do is go one further, take one of my old (stock) rocker arms and tack weld that flat piece in place. I'll put a spot of Dykem down for a reference point and this should make for a tool that should have some good consistency!

As far as the preciseness of JEEP (the company), I have to disagree with you.. I think that it is more like a semi round peg in a semi NO hole!!
JEEP 4.0 Notoriously noisy because of piston skirt slap , noisy sloppy timing chains and last but not least noisy rocker assembles!! [/b] Sorry for the Rant but I have never owned an Engine that from the factory was so noisy and rough idling (and I own 2 of them ).

Bbarrett, Thanks for your input!

[SilverXJ]

Never said he was, just saying it can be exact if you take your time and realize what you are doing

And I'll say it again, there is no reason to be exact on these engines in respect to preload. Get it close as you can and with in range and it will be fine.

[Bike Guy]

I received my Trend Performance push-rod length checker (which measures .050 per rotation) today and on a quick check of my #1 cylinder @ TDC Comp. stroke shows the intake had .100 to much Preload & the exhaust was roughly .120 more than it should of been, this is figuring it with a .050 preload set-up. These are rough #'s, tomorrow I will torque down (instead of finger tight) the rockers and check each valve since there seams to be such a large discrepancy!


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