Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Performance mods and Advanced Stroker discussion.
User avatar
1bolt
Donator
Donator
Posts: 545
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 4:06 pm
Location: Culpeper Virginia

Re: A conversation with Rick Mudge

Post by 1bolt »

Plechtan wrote:I thought this would be the best place to post this, I Talked to a guy named Rick Mudge the other night, he worked for 20 years at JTE ( Jeep and truck engineering) in the Flow lab. He knows everything about the Jeep head. He did the head work on the Garth Hill Dragster. He is retired now, but was more than willing to give me some advise. Out conversation lasted about 2 hours and covered many subjects, I will post here the main points he made about the Jeep head.

1. Do not bother putting in an exhaust valve bigger than 1.550, the port will not be able to handle flow from a valve bigger than that.
2. if you want to get into the 300 cfm range on the intake side, you will need at least a 2.050 intake valve.
3. The port match on the top of the intake port ( intake to the head) is critical. Any lip in the area will cause major turbulence ruin the flow. ( trim those injector bosses down) ( maybe somebody could verify this on a flow bench, check with a stock manifold, then port match)
4. a dual header is a wonderful thing, two separate exhausts is better than an x pipe
5. The combustion chamber should be as small as possible, on the Hill dragster the head was so thin that the only way the could get the head to seal to the block was to use a graphite gasket. use a deeper dish in the piston to adjust the compression ratio. The combustion chamber on the jeep head is not the best.

The conversation covered many other things, but the main point was, the head is only a piece of the puzzle, you must also consider the intake and exhaust as when looking at the head, it is a complete system. Once you get the head, intake , and exhaust flowing well, then you need to look at a Cam that will take advantage of that. once that is decided, then the Valve train would have to match as well. These are topics for other threads, so please do not go off topic here. We should stay focused on the cylinder head
Me and Pete were PMing about this, very interesting nuggets, Rick was appearently also involved in the 0331 head and I would assume the exhaust and intake manifold. I've simmed the 0331 head intake and iron exhaust in EAP and preliminary looks suggest that the later 4.0 system without accounting for Cam shaft change makes around 10 hp and 15 foot pounds more than the earlier stock HO heads/Intake/Exhaust... Considering that we already know the intake is only good for 3-4 horse power that's saying something for the 0331... Those Alabama Cylinder Head 0331's are looking like good performance deals maybe.
--
Simon
Looking for a 232 crankshaft see my want ad: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=1292
http://www.jeepstrokers.com 94 XJ Stroked lifted locked. 89 MJ restored Work truck, 88 YJ going on third build up and second Stroker.
nosigma
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 42
Joined: June 12th, 2008, 11:38 pm

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by nosigma »

1bolt,

Have you had a chance to make any upgrades to the flow bench or conduct any further tests?

John
User avatar
1bolt
Donator
Donator
Posts: 545
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 4:06 pm
Location: Culpeper Virginia

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by 1bolt »

This winter I blew it apart and rebuilt much of it. I have problems with my shoulders so I wanted to lower the Head and bore fixture so they wouldn't be at shoulder height (I was having issues moving heads around). I boxed in the bore fixture with an MDF cabinet. So I'd have storage for manometer reservoirs and plumbing, and that gave me a place to mount a VARIAC with the body hidden behind a sort of control panel, along with some other controls (tubing switches) and a Dwyer Magnehelic gauge for test pressure. I added vac motors also. Now it's got two shop vacs and 3 Ameritek motors. I redid the back board with 1" MDF, Made some inclined reservoir manometers Also have started making MDF tops in place of the plywood cover. Also made a porting station area that uses some of the top surface area of the bench. Basically I made a sort of V-notch or saddle out of thick MDF and covered it in 1/4" thick Aluminum diamond tread to port heads on. So I can skid the head around when I need to get different angles, without destroying the top of the bench. I also put two 2" holes in this notch that are Plumbed underneath with PVC to the shop vac ports this sucks the filings and iron dust right out while porting. So no more black boogers :o

As of last week it's being taken back apart in preparation for a move. In the plans are a digital DAQ manometer system to interface directly with my laptop. In the mean time I made some slick inclined reservoir manometers and made the fluid res out of clear plexi tube that uses a 4" PVC test plug as a lid. I have a pic of one of those, I'm sure it wont seem like anything special to most people, but in the home made flow bench world there aren't that many good fluid reservoir solutions. These are clear, seal up nice and are large enough to make the fluid surface area ratio error factor statistically insignificant. (as in to the right of the decimal). Here's a pic of one:
Image

I wish I had some pics of the bench, but when the move is over and I get it set back up I will post some.
--
Simon
Looking for a 232 crankshaft see my want ad: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=1292
http://www.jeepstrokers.com 94 XJ Stroked lifted locked. 89 MJ restored Work truck, 88 YJ going on third build up and second Stroker.
nosigma
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 42
Joined: June 12th, 2008, 11:38 pm

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by nosigma »

Thats great news. The reservoirs and controllable motors/variac are a huge improvement. Getting rid of the bouncing meniscus and being able to run a fixed pressure drop simplify things tremendously. Really glad to see that your tearing into it an making it yours and taking it up a couple notches.

Watch out for those black boogers. The one thing I really hated was the mess that porting made. Even with running a shop vac plumbed into the other end of the port was working on the dust would still get everywhere leaving a light coating of rust on all my tools due the moisture in the air. Even with a cannister respirator I would get that crap in my nose, throat and lungs just from being in the room not wearing it after I was done cutting. Felt pretty crappy after a couple of days porting and it took a few days to get over it.

Thanks for the update.

John
Brian E
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 43
Joined: July 11th, 2009, 8:15 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.6
Vehicle Year: 1998
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: TJ

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by Brian E »

Has anyone figured out how to tell a good 0331 from a bad? My first one cracked big time. My new one has not but I shure as hell do not want to end up in another state working on it. I just sent both to the machine shop trying to decide which one to port and cut the spring seats on for my new comp cam springs. My other head is a 94 0720.
User avatar
1bolt
Donator
Donator
Posts: 545
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 4:06 pm
Location: Culpeper Virginia

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by 1bolt »

Nope sadly we still don't know, we have a thread on the 0331 with pics of the casting marks from various heads trying to find some commonality (a date code or other identifying marks) on heads that crack versus newer heads that don't. All we do know is that a 0331 from Alabama cylinder heads has the "flaw" fixed and is known to be a revised OEM casting stock replacement...

Maybe someone should call them and see if they can track someone down who can tell us what year they revised the head to not be crack prone... It seems like cracking heads on 02's are rarer than 01's, and 03's have few reports of cracks that I recall (like maybe one or two on the big JeepForum thread Dino started a while back?).

If I was going to port an 0331 I would find a local yard that has a wrecked 04-06 WJ or TJ and go pull the head for $50 bucks. Don't forget the exhaust manifolds and the intake while you're there, the manifolds are a big part (maybe the biggest part) of the system, and unless you're going to replace the iron exhaust manifold with a long tube header then the iron one is the best part for the job for a off road/street Jeep build... Lower underhood temps and better scavenging (if you omit the pre cats) and run the dual outlet pipes all the way back to some hi flow cats and a set of good mufflers.

You wont want either manifold if you're going drag racing (not many of us doing that though)... well maybe you do if you have a Turbo in mind as the iron manifold is very desirable in a turbo application :mrgreen:
--
Simon
Looking for a 232 crankshaft see my want ad: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=1292
http://www.jeepstrokers.com 94 XJ Stroked lifted locked. 89 MJ restored Work truck, 88 YJ going on third build up and second Stroker.
Brian E
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 43
Joined: July 11th, 2009, 8:15 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.6
Vehicle Year: 1998
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: TJ

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by Brian E »

My first one broke the guys at Titan installed. The one that's on there now seams fine but only has about 500 miles on it. I already have the new intake from Ebay and I found a guy who had a new JBA and Magnal flow Header in the box, duel out let by I am going to have my exhaust redone to fit it, he sold me the pair for 150.00. I just sent my 7120 to Dave Rumping in Gainsvile for all the work.
dwg86
Donator
Donator
Posts: 1198
Joined: February 13th, 2008, 6:20 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.6
Vehicle Year: 2003
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by dwg86 »

Brian E wrote:Has anyone figured out how to tell a good 0331 from a bad? My first one cracked big time. My new one has not but I shure as hell do not want to end up in another state working on it. I just sent both to the machine shop trying to decide which one to port and cut the spring seats on for my new comp cam springs. My other head is a 94 0720.
What comp cam springs are you using? What retainers will work with the comp springs and 8mm Jeep valves? What about valve locks? I think the ones in the 7120 head have 1 groove, while the 0331 has 3 grooves.
Brian E
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 43
Joined: July 11th, 2009, 8:15 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.6
Vehicle Year: 1998
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: TJ

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by Brian E »

Comp 942 springs. My freind who is a machinest and race car engine builder sat with me and picked these over the one comp suggested for the 4.2. The retainer that Comp, Summit and Lunati sent did not work as they suggested. We went with retainer's my freind had and all he did was mill the top well of the retainers for rocker clearence. They are 10 deg and we used Manley keepers which we had to machine off the top lash cap retainers on but worked great. I am working on finding the make of the retainers because he had them in a box and was not shure either, but they where for a V8 Ford so I have two extra. Final install came to this with no head milling for spring height.

Seat 108 - 111lbs
.655 to coil bind W/O - Lash
open at 285 - 290 lbs @ .490 lift.

My Comp Cam is .47?int - .493exh - 68 235 4

I could use these spring set this way up to about .550 or a little better.

I am in the Hospital again but as soon as I get out I will put it together and give feed back. PS he did a great port job and un shadowed the valves, also reshaped the bowls to increase swirl.
nosigma
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 42
Joined: June 12th, 2008, 11:38 pm

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by nosigma »

1bolt

I just pulled down my Rambler motor due to a bad over rev (7200 rpm) which caused a vibration. Since I have the head off I would love to get it flowed after I clean it up and see just what I ended up with using the bigger offset valves. If your still have the flow bench up and running let me know so we can get this head tested.

John
I6FAN
I made it to triple digits!
I made it to triple digits!
Posts: 172
Joined: March 28th, 2010, 9:31 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.2
Vehicle Year: 1987
Vehicle Make: jeep
Vehicle Model: wrangler

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by I6FAN »

Any progress on this? I was following this closely. I believe this was the 7120 head with oversized valves offset towards center. I was curious how well the repositioning work out. I also was wondering if anyone has done anymore flow testing of the 0331, or the Alabama CH version both unported, ported, and bigger valved ect. This was dormant for awhile, and then all of a sudden a sprak of life here. :o This is great stuff you guys have reported on! :cheers:
User avatar
4.whoa
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 329
Joined: March 2nd, 2010, 5:50 am
Vehicle Make: jeep
Vehicle Model: xj&mj
Location: Grandville,Mi

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by 4.whoa »

Did you ever get a comparison with and without the bore notches? I put them in my last motor, it was .060 over and am thinking about doing it to another thats going to be just .030. Wondering just how much it helps. :cheers:
-Russ

4wd is fun, but 2wd is a BLAST
User avatar
4.whoa
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 329
Joined: March 2nd, 2010, 5:50 am
Vehicle Make: jeep
Vehicle Model: xj&mj
Location: Grandville,Mi

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by 4.whoa »

[quote="1bolt The floor was lowered just a bit on the cylinder center side forming a very very slight trough along the wall. Biasing the valve guide boss to direct flow towards the exhaust valve side combined with the trough and port bias brought swirl way up, far more than any other head tested.
Image

[/b][/i][/quote]

Any chance there are pics of this? "along the wall",as in lower the side into the floor,or just close to the wall ? how slight-1/16" ,1/8"? :huh:
has anyone messed with 30* valve seats? i've been reading that they help ALOT with lower lifts and even our"big" cams aren't all that big(lift wise)
-Russ

4wd is fun, but 2wd is a BLAST
Don H Jr
I made it to triple digits!
I made it to triple digits!
Posts: 103
Joined: January 12th, 2010, 1:11 pm
Vehicle Year: 1994
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by Don H Jr »

I remember this post well, as I printed it and re read it dozens of times...never convinced it was a 4.0 engine block/4.0 head displayed. It wasn't cleared up by the text for me either. My 69' Chev 427' engine block had the reliefs machined in the block like you illustrate/suggest, so I know of which you speak, but decided I wouldn't machine my stroker block based on info in this very nice post here.
I keep reading you 1 Bolt, cause you are obsessive enough at getting to the AMC truths of things, I must.
Thanks for your many efforts...this one is a trail near it's end for me. I feel the end in sight. I write this before reading all of the below. I have to await my wife changing rooms in the house before I print it all off in highest detail with my printer, lol.

Don H Jr
Still Strokeless in Seattle
nosigma
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 42
Joined: June 12th, 2008, 11:38 pm

Re: Flow bench Head Porting collected work by NOSIGMA

Post by nosigma »

4.whoa wrote:[quote="1bolt The floor was lowered just a bit on the cylinder center side forming a very very slight trough along the wall. Biasing the valve guide boss to direct flow towards the exhaust valve side combined with the trough and port bias brought swirl way up, far more than any other head tested.
[/img]

[/b][/i]
Any chance there are pics of this? "along the wall",as in lower the side into the floor,or just close to the wall ? how slight-1/16" ,1/8"? :huh:
has anyone messed with 30* valve seats? i've been reading that they help ALOT with lower lifts and even our"big" cams aren't all that big(lift wise)[/quote]

Fortunately I have the head sitting on the work bench getting ready to go into the 4.7 stroker I am building for my Rambler. The port floor is about 1/8 of an inch lower on the cylinder center side. Its a gradual slope of about 1/16 of an inch with another ~1/16th of an inch "ditch" thats about 3/8 wide right along the port wall on the cylinder center side. This is what biases the flow and creates all the swirl. Its hard to see in the attached pics but its there. The pics are upside down for a better view of floor with the gasket surface at the top of the picture and the valve springs at the bottom. The flare at the top of the port is on the exhaust side. I threw in a exhaust port pic just for fun. Notice that the intake port is wider at the bottom than at the top. I am tempted to make some castings of the port so I can give exact dimensions. Its really hard to see whats going on in a picture. Anyone interested?

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

John
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests