Cam Failure

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FrankZ
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Cam Failure

Post by FrankZ »

Newb checkin' in. :mrgreen:

I've got approx. 14k on my stroker and the cam failed. Yes all of the proper break-in procedures were used. Rotella 15-40 oil changed regularly.

For those that have gone through this mess:
What have you guys done to prevent a re-occurance?
Anyone tried thr Crower Cam Saver Lifters? Any issues?
Any Mopar Performance cam users ever loose a camshaft lobe?

I'm really concerned about having to screw around with the motor evry 12-14 months because of the potential fro another failure.

FWIW, Here's a link to my stroker build....
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=80410

Current thread documenting the failure and rebuild efforts...
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=119853


Any input is appreciated. :cheers:
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Shark
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by Shark »

what cam/springs/lifters? use any EOS in your oil or something with ZDDP?
'91 MJ 4.0 ax15 Resto-mod street truck project, stroker candidate
'93 XJ 2door 4.0 aw4 np231 7" lift 33's
'95 XJ 4door 4.0 aw4 2" 31's
'95 XJ 4door 4.0 aw4 np231 4" lift 31's RIP
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FrankZ
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by FrankZ »

Crane Cam and lifters, # 753905. Installed and broken-in exactly per the MFG's instructions. As stated above Rotella (with Zinc) used for break-in and I continued to us it up untill the most recent oil change which was just under 2500 miles ago.

The Cylinder head was machined to use Chevy small block springs. My machine shop is McCabe Motorsports. Robbi McCabe is primarily a race engine builder. Best shop in the state (Colorado) or anywhere else for that matter.
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by seanyb505 »

Sorry about your luck. It sucks some people have to get it wrong for eveyone to get it right, but you are helping steer people in the right direction when you find out what went wrong. It seems its exactly what happened to Dino, and I remember reading a similar thread on Jeeps Unlimited about the same symptoms. Soooo glad I didnt buy from crane...
Now I can be like all those other awesome people with more than one Jeep in their sig, but now I have to say one of them is sold:(
97 XJ 4.6
90 MJ 4.0 - sold

I want to have as many Jeeps as children. DD, offroader, drag MJ and another one. 4=4
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by 4point6 »

I've read through a bunch of posts on the cam failure issue, and rethinking my cam choice for my build.

Not sure if it makes a difference but... Wondering what kind of oil pump you were using - high volume or stock? I read at least two failures with the HV pump (Dino and this guyhttp://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11726. Seems #6 exhaust is always the worst. Maybe the HV pump is somehow affecting this - maybe pumping too much oil elsewhere? I recall reading that HV pumps weren't good for low RPM as all the oil can end up top. Just a thought to kick around...
-Andy

'97 XJ 4.6L Stroker
'00 Explorer
'67 Mustang Fastback (project)
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Flash
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by Flash »

sorry to here of you troubles.. :cry:


A couple of questions
Did you stop using additive or high Zinc content oil the last oil change.....or did i miss understand that.

2nt what is the seat pressure of those chev valve spring and what is the spring pressure at full open or full lift.

It is kinda strange that back lifters is alway the one to fail first on a CRANE cam :shock:


Flash
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."
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FrankZ
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by FrankZ »

On my most recent oil change I switched from Rotella to Mobile1.

I don't recall the exact spring pressure numbers, but I do know that they were within the same range as the springs I was going to get from Crane. I went with the Chevy springs based on recommendations from my machinist. SBC parts are plentyfull so replacement, if needed, won't be an issue.

I don't think that it's entirely a Crane Cam issue at this point. A quick search of the web reveals that all of the cam mfgrs are suffering from flat lobes.

Since my heep was a daily driver (and still is...sorta) that sees alot of low rpm rock crawling I'm guessing that the lack of higher rpms may have had something to do with the possible lack of rotation of the lifter in the bore itself. I can't prove it, just basing it on being an old geezer that's been around the block a time or two.

I talked to my machinist today and he recommended using either Delo (Diesel Oil w/ Zinc) or Joe Gibbs racing Oil ( loaded with Zinc). I'll be buying the Gibbs oil by the case.
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heartlandoffroad
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by heartlandoffroad »

I've had several failures in a variety of cam manufactures I swapped to Johnson lifters and haven't had a failure sense. I've been in contact with them to make one with a EDM hole which would even be better no luck yet though.
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Flash
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by Flash »

Have you price gibbs oil$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I wouldn't let Crane off the hook so ease. I have been saying for a long time, that crane is not the only one having problems with cam failures(which is TRUE) but...........well, no one is getting any long life out of a CRANE cam, NO ONE.

IF any one was going to make a Crane cam live, it would have been you. AS you new about the cam failure, you new how to brake a cam in right, and keeping the protective additive, and oil in............... :huh:


Flash
89 XJ with 300,000 on the original eng

"I've also never completed a motor, yet. My mouth (fingers) is also writing checks my ass can't cash."
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by Cheromaniac »

4point6 wrote: Not sure if it makes a difference but... Wondering what kind of oil pump you were using - high volume or stock? I read at least two failures with the HV pump (Dino and this guyhttp://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11726. Seems #6 exhaust is always the worst. Maybe the HV pump is somehow affecting this - maybe pumping too much oil elsewhere? I recall reading that HV pumps weren't good for low RPM as all the oil can end up top. Just a thought to kick around...
I only had the HV oil pump for 4 months before my cam/lifter failure (Crane 753905). I'd been running a stock pump most of the time. My Crane did at least last 34k miles before it finally threw in the towel. I had the Mopar 5249464 springs. Only the no.6 intake lobe was worn down. No.6 intake lifter concave, no.6 exhaust lifter merely collapsed with no wear and exhaust cam lobe was fine.
I've been running the stock cam and springs for the last 13k miles without any problem (knock on wood).
1992 XJ 4.6 I6 - 5MT - Stroker build-up, Stroker "recipes" Sold
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FrankZ
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by FrankZ »

I'm not going to fight Crane. The warranty period was over 3 months ago. I may pack up all the parts and send them to Crane along with a polite letter explaining why the cam and lifters are sitting on their desk.

Flash,
Yes, and I stated earlier in this thread that it will costme less than a quart of Mobile1(retail). My machinist is a distributor for Gibbs oil.
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by 4point6 »

Cheromaniac wrote: I only had the HV oil pump for 4 months before my cam/lifter failure (Crane 753905). I'd been running a stock pump most of the time. My Crane did at least last 34k miles before it finally threw in the towel. I had the Mopar 5249464 springs. Only the no.6 intake lobe was worn down. No.6 intake lifter concave, no.6 exhaust lifter merely collapsed with no wear and exhaust cam lobe was fine.
I've been running the stock cam and springs for the last 13k miles without any problem (knock on wood).

Did you do anything special to the stock cam before reinstalling, or did you just throw it back in? I'm seriously considering putting my stock 97 back in, even though it has 194k miles. It looks remarkably well all things considered. I checked the bearing journals, all looked to be in spec. Only bad thing I noticed was the #1 exhaust lobe was a *tiny* bit rounded over when I put a straight edge to it. I got a melling cam with a rebuild kit, it has the 1/2" lobes that I am getting worried about. Also, reuse my old lifters or use new ones? THe old ones are still organized by location (somehow). I plan on using stock springs also. THanks
-Andy

'97 XJ 4.6L Stroker
'00 Explorer
'67 Mustang Fastback (project)
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FrankZ
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by FrankZ »

Since I had minimal service calls today I took advantage of the free time to pull the motor and tear it down. Based on my visit to McCabe Motorsports earlier in the day I was prepared for the worst. After getting all the preliminary work taken care of I had my son help me pull the motor and tear into it. When we finally got to the timing chain I noticed that it was fairly loose for only having 14k on it. I'm pretty sure that in the process of limping off the Hwy 191 out of Moab to I-70 on 5 cylinders I caused the chain to skip a tooth or more. No other damage indicated other than a couple of slightly bent pushrods.

We both held our breath as we wrestled the bumpstick out of the block expecting to see a shiny stick instead of a cam. We were both amazed at the condition of the lobes. Yeah the #12 lobe is worn down alot, but we really expected all of them to be in really bad shape. This was not the case. Image

The remaining 10 lifters looked great. The cooresponding lobes for those lifters looked damn good too!
Image

Image

We then pulled the pan and once again I was expecting a thick silvery coating on the bottom. While there was evidence of metallic dust/oil it was not nearly as bad as we thought we'd see. YES!!!
Image

Image

The cylinders got a little coolant in them while we were taking stuff apart so I wiped them down with fresh oil and took a look. No scoring on any of the walls and the cross-hatch from the cylinder hone is still visible. Hopefully you can see it in the pic below.
Image

Based on everything i've read i can say with confidence that I screwed up. How? Simple...Hi-Volume Oil pump installed insted of a standard volume pump. It appears that the amount of oil in the crankcase (1/2 quart extra) has no bearing on where the oil goes....Duh! I'm fairly certain that the lifters on the ends of the block were getting less oil than than they would with a standard pump. I maybe dead wrong, but that's my position and only time and a new camshaft will tell.

I'm still going to try the Crower Cam Saver Lifters and the Crower Baja Brute Cam but I'll be replacing the HV pump with a stock flow Melling.

Rockers will stay stock for now and a new set of straight pushrods will go in as well.

Guess I might as well replace the rear main seal while I'm at it. I figure it will start leaking at the 30 mile mark...it's Jeep thing.:shrug:

A few gaskets and viola'......motor will be ready to return to work.

Anyone seen my red engine paint?
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SilverXJ
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by SilverXJ »

You should check your main bearings while you are at it.
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FrankZ
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Re: Cam Failure

Post by FrankZ »

Already found my Plasti-gauge.....
I'll post up my results.
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