Jeep Strokers

ZDDP is necessary for our motors to run, but since they are taking it out of most oils, here is my question. In which oils or additives is ZDDP still available? Is there a certain rating on the back to look for? I heard a bunch of different answers here and there, but no real common one. If anyone has a comprehensive list or would like to make one, that would be awesome.

I'll put a list together and post, also I have a good oil additive calculator that I will try and get permission to post from the author. If you need oil right now, Delo 400LE exceeds the 1000 PPM necessary for our flat tappet cams.
John

Thanks, I dont need it right now, but I figured it would be a good topic to have done, out of the way, and clearly written out especially for people starting/finishing builds.

Also a area I had thought to add to the growing FAQ section. I just finished writing the author of the additive calculator requesting permission to post. I have a lot of data on hand that I will put in some constructive order and see if it is acceptable to the group. We must remember this additive package question is a constantly changing arena from the manufactures updates of formulations.
John

i have been running whatever oil is on sale (i know that sounds bad) at every oil change. im pretty sure none of them contain the levels of ZDDP recommended by the experts for flat-tappet motors but i havent experienced any issues (related to oil anyway). is the presence of ZDDP in the oil most important during the break-in period of a cam? what problems will i encounter if i continue to use "blue-light special" oils? this is a stocker not a stroker if that makes any diff.

I never used anything special in the stock engine either. My dad ran Mobil 1 for about 50k miles before it became mine and I ran it for about 30k before just cheaping out and going with Castrol high mileage. Is it possible to run oils with ZDDP for the first 50k miles or so and than switch to regular oil?

this is true, but how does an additive calculator arrive at additive numbers without spectrographic analysis (Virgin oil analysis)?

I think if we can come up with a small list of higher ZDDP oil's that are CURRENTLY available on shelves and have been validated by VOA's on BITOG we will probably sticky it in all the major topics: Stroker Basics, Stroker Tech and Advanced/OEM tech topics because it is universally valuable info and not really a FAQ in the strictest sense.

I'd like to contribute to it as well so lets use this thread as our whiteboard and we will assemble everything into one cohesive post later.

In the spirit of not duplicating each others efforts I will be trying to compile a comparison of different oil WEIGHTS versus wear metals. So I wont be stepping on your alls ZDDP charting.

Sounds like a way to go, VOA and UOA analysis is real world, manufacturers hype is just that. Put it all together and then cut and paste to files. You and I have discussed this arena before on Yahoo. Lets get started.
John

tigerShark wrote: is the presence of ZDDP in the oil most important during the break-in period of a cam? what problems will i encounter if i continue to use "blue-light special" oils? this is a stocker not a stroker if that makes any diff.

Great question, it is a common misperception that elevated ZDDP is only useful during a Cam break in, ZDDP forms a sacrificial layer that pretty much tells you all you need to know... it's not there permanently and lack of sufficiently high levels of ZDDP will eventually result in NO sacrificial ZDDP layer on your "EP" bearing surfaces. That is "Extreme Pressure" basically any metal to metal or geared surface that does not ride on a pressurized layer of oil; is an EP surface and needs ZDDP to form so that the ZDDP is "worn off" by the pressure instead of the base metal the ZDDP is attached to.

So without more ZDDP to take its place, you eventually have elevated wear levels.

EP surfaces are: Cams lobes, Lifters faces, Push rod tips, stamped rocker push rod pockets, rocker fulcrums, rocker tips, valve tips, timing gears, timing chain and Get this: Oil pump gears! And little known: EVERY SINGLE BEARING SURFACE IN AN ENGINE at the first moments of startup before oil pressure creates the fluid bearing surface inside mains, rod and cam bearings etc.

Further more the more "extreme" the pressure the HIGH LEVEL OF ZDDP REQUIRED to maintain the ZDDP layer on a part... So if you have high pressure performance valve springs, you need more ZDDP.

There is an SAE paper directly correlating metal wear on cam lobes with spring pressure and ZDDP % if you raise the spring pressure with a % of ZDDP that was adequately protecting things (low wear measurements) all of a sudden is no longer enough % of ZDDP and wear rates accelerate dramatically, until ZDDP is elevated to compensate. I will try and dig up the paper.

I use Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15w50. It has something like 1200.

EDIT..

It is 1200:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... _Guide.pdf

They also say its for flat tappet cams...

HT/HS applications. Racing and Flat tappet applications

Does this belong in "Stroker Basics"?

I thought the topic of having a list of which oils contain ZDDP would fall under stroker basics but further analyses of oil and chemistry would probly be too advanced to be considered "basic."

The original intent seems basic... Problem is it could just as well be posted in Stroker tech. You can also say it's an "advanced tech" or OEM tech subject. ZDDP is important to even bone stock 4.0's and even MORE important to high lift cam strokers with high spring pressures (presumably Stroker tech or Advanced tech).

IMHO this is the problem with having too many forum areas that are too specific... there are lots of topics that are relevant to or even very important to all of the above and really not that many topics that are only applicable to one specific area of interest... But this is now a "Forum discussion" post...

My dad just went and bought one of those huge Costco boxes that has six 4 quart jugs of oil. It's the Delo stuff used for diesel which is what the guys at http://www.460ford.com said was good to use. It also says low emissions on it. Is this the same stuff John is taking about. Maybe run the high ZDDP content oil with some GM EOS for the initial break in. Then just run some regular motor oil with higher than norm ZDDP content after break in.

Aaron that would be a good break in combination. I will be adding additional information re: oil packages for continual use.
John

From what I have heard and been recomended, run a good zddp oil durring break in or add GM EOS, followed by the same combo through 1-2K miles then you can switch to a quality synthetic oil or run standard off the shelf oil with a small amount of GM EOS in it. This info is second hand through a buddy who is building a VW, this was recomended by a reputable VW shop.