New 4.6L stroker build

[4.whoa]

Basscat- I never had any problems with oil return when I ran an hv pump,and I LOVE high rpm's. I even run it 1/2 qt low @ the track and i've never noticed the gauge even flutter.

[SilverXJ]

What is the purpose of running 1/2 qt low?

[the_wrench116]

i believe that you would run it a .5 qt low to reduce windage losses. less of a chance for oil to climb the back wall of the oil pan and get whipped around by the crank. the four cylinder guys do the same because the balance shafts act like egg beaters. and its been shown to actualy make a difference in et.

[4.whoa]

Yep. That's why

[basscat]

Silver,

It may be a mis-print but the blueprinted HV pump that 505 shows on their website is cheaper than the Melling HV pump I bought at Advance Auto. I know shipping will drive up the price and 505 doesn't show a pickup tube so it isn't an apples to apples comparison. But, the difference isn't going to be absurd like double the price. I returned the pump and decided to take a wait and see approach.

Glad to hear that the HV pump doesn't pump the pan dry. I rarely twisted my motor to 3000 rpms so I felt pretty sure I wouldn't have pumped it dry no matter what.

Basscat

[SilverXJ]

Its a is misprint. That is the standard pump at $75. Their HV pump is $125.

[SilverXJ]

Clay Smith Cams got my cam on Tuesday and had it ready to ship out on Thursday. They checked it out, polished the lobes and journals and re parkerized it. They only charged me $25 + shipping. After my experience with Isky and the detail put into the cam I wouldn't hesitate to run one of their cams again.

I haven't received my two lifters yet and found out they were only shipped today. So I'll have to wait on those.

I got a set of King bearings instead of Clevite this time around. They were cheaper and I have heard good things about King bearings. Got the from Falcon on ebay with quick shipping as usual.

I was going to purchase a 505 Performance blue printed HV oil pump, but they aren't forth coming with information on it. I asked them what pressure it was set at and then what else was done to it during "blue printing". No reply on the other info after 4 days. And I'm not paying what Hesco is asking for theirs. I'll probably get a Melling HV pump and attempt to adjust the pressure my self.. I'm thinking a piece of 1/2" plexi with holes drilled in the appropriate places and then tapped for a pressure gauge. Maybe just use 1/2" aluminum.

Cam bearings. Durabond makes a set (N-7B) that has the #2 and #2 with a 360* OD groove. I don't see the purpose in that as the oil hole is a good place as it is. I'll probably get the standard N-7 bearings. For some reason the list the N-7 for 87-01 4.0L and list an N-10 for the 02-06 4.0L. I was unaware of any difference in the cam bearing sin any 4.0Ls. Its probably a misprint as they list the #1 N-7 bearing as having a 1.1560 housing bore diameter when it is 2.1560. Regardless I will talk to their tech support to see if there is in fact some odd difference.

Restrictor push rods will be purchased from Manton in the .040" size. $8.75 each with the .040" hole and 210* ends.

I also received all the parts I need for the cam oil squirter from McMaster Carr. Two parker Vibra-lok 1/8" NPT compression fittings for 1/8" copper tubing and a 3' length of 1/8" copper pipe. $10.58. I will probably have to anneal the pipe to get the orientation of the hole just right as the pipe is quite hard. I had to modify one of the fittings so the pipe would pass through it. I knew that the pipe was hard from the McMaster listing, but it was the only pipe that didn't come in ridiculous lengths (3' was the minimum on this one).

I was thinking about doing the cam gear lube a different way. My cam sensor drive/pump drive has a ring around it about 1/2" way up where it fits in the block. That ring than intersects with a flat cut in it that points nearly directly over the cam gear. I had thought about putting the fitting so it intersects the slot. Looks like it was meant for this. However I don't know how I would go about putting a fitting in that area that would not project into the drive itself. An NPT fitting has to be in quite far to seal and an o-ring type fitting wouldn't work as the sealing surface would have a curve to it. My machinist thought that the slot was to bring oil up to the drive oil hole, which is about the same level as the band. That makes sense but doesn't explain the ring around it. Maybe Jeep had thought of the idea of adding something to feed that slot for cam gear oiling.

Next weekend I should be putting the engine together. Again.

[SilverXJ]

We are putting it back together.

I noticed that the oil drain back holes to the rear still had a bit of casting flash on them so I cleaned that up.

Block cleaned x3, cam bearings installed, crank installed with .0018-.0020" clearance.

Melling HV pump
King bearings Main and rod
Durabond cam bearings
Clay Smith cam
Johnson/Hylift lifters
.040" restrictor pushrods.

I was going to go with a set of stock lifters. However I ordered one of the Mopar Performance and OEM. I was quite disappointed when I found they were different from the stock one I had and were like every other aftermarket lifter. Kind of pissed about that actually. Went with the Hylifts instead.

Besides checking the valve train again with solid lifters, checking the rod and main clearances, checking the lifter to bore clearances and checking the cam to cam bearing clearances, anything else I need to pay attention to?

[Bodo]

anything else I need to pay attention to?

Did you get a priest to perform the exorcism?

[the_wrench116]

i took it as a joke last time this time im going to second that thought.

[amcinstaller]

yay for comic relief! lookin forward to this engine working well Silver

[SilverXJ]

I tried to come up with a witty reply to the exorcism... but I just couldn't think of anything. I just want a working engine and nothing makes sense.

I personally still think the whole lifter bleeding down the pressure is bs. I'm not the only person that has run this combo, just the only one having this issue. The valve train bind theory isn't valid either as I checked it all before.. with measurements, checking valve springs and then solid lifters with the running springs. I watched the springs, retainer to seal, rocker arm slot, and push rod to head. I took measurements of everything. Doing the math doesn't show anything to bind. Plus the comp cam had more lift than either the Isky and the Hesco cam. Not only that but if the springs, retainers, rockers, seals, etc were binding I would see some evidence such as damaged valve seals, bent pushrods, wiped cam lobes. No none of that.. nothing. All clearances checked and nothing found wrong. As far as the block is concerned, I could under stand one block having this problem, but not two blocks, and one block with bearings that lived with the comp cam.

Right now that only thing that makes sense is that stupid timing chain guide/damper/tensioner, whatever you want to call it. Its just stupid to begin with.. its on the tension side of the timing chain.. why? to throw off timing? All other timing chain tensioners I have seen are on the slack side.. To take up the slack!! What good does it do on the tension side? Hesco says not to use it with the double roller chain, but they won't actually tell me why. Maybe its binding the chain? But even if that is it... why aren't other people having problems with it? I'm also reminded of the odd fit of the timing cover last time.. like it was over to the passenger side too much.. I thought it was odd, so I tried to fit it again with the same results.

Its not like I have been slapping these engines together haphazardly. Everything is clean, every clearance is measured, everything is well lubed, everything is torqued to spec, cam break in done to the T, etc. Whats next? Measuring every bolt hole and bearing surface in relation the the crank and its journal surface using nonexistent blue prints? Sens it to Hesco and pay $2k-$3k for them tot ake it apart, put it back together and tell me nothing is wrong?

I just got back from the machine shop where we finished assembly of the short block with the exception of degreeing the cam. And of course nothing was found wrong.

I'm just tired of this. I want to drive my XJ with a stroker I built. Not to mention the fact that the piston slap coming from the ZJ is getting worse, I need to put this thing together so I can get the fuck out of dodge, and I have other projects i need to attend to. Oh.. and not to mention how much all this crap costs.

/rant

Disclaimer: This rant is not directed at anyone. It is merely a vent. Nothing more.

[Bodo]

I didn't put the snubbers on my timing set either. I didn't even realize that there was something supposed to go there. All of the BBC and SBC that I've seen built at the shop do not use them.

I haven't busted off this motor yet, so I can't say how it'll work. Just not too worried about it.

[SilverXJ]

The short block is together. Guess what? Nothing wrong found, as usual. We also put some solid lifters in and threw the head and rockers on to check for binding. None. Plenty of room between the spring coils and about 1/8" between the spring retain and valve seals.

I'm going to check the push rod length this weekend and order some restrictor pushrods. I was planning on .040" restrictor hole, but they are offered in a .030" and .020" as well. The .020" being a bit more expensive. being that I have roller rockers and they don't need a lot of oil maybe i should go with the .020" restrictors.

We were discussing it and my machinist thought that the initial damage may be happening during the first start. He thinks that perhaps the lifters aren't pressurized enough to fully meter the oil and its all being pumped to the top end with little going to the cam bearings. When I do the initial prime I am going to take an old bike tire, cut it in half and lay it across the pushrods and just bolt the rockers down enough to hold the tire there. Closing off the pushrods and forcing all the oil to the bottom end.

[SilverXJ]

Not much of an update.

I ordered the pushrods from smith brothers. .020" restrictor. $140. I setup the cam gear oiler using the stock oil sensor port. Went with a .036" hole for that. I'll provide pics of that later.

I checked the valve train for bind again, and once again none found. Plenty of room between the retainer and seal, spring coil, rocker pivots, and pushrods and holes in head. Bind theory is completely dismissed x6.

I removed the tensioning block from the timing chain cover along with its mounts.

I had a bit of problem with the oil pickup. I went through 3 before I got a nice tight fit. I don't know if it was the way I was installing the pickup or what, but the third worked. I ended up making a device to hold the pickup in a vise and pounded the pump on. I made the tool out of plexi cut on the laser with a hole in it to hold the pickup. I also found something of interest on the oil pump, but I will post that in another thread after some research on it.