Stroker vs. LS1

Off topic, play nice. No Nudity, Pornographic material etc..
Post Reply
Joshy
Noob
Noob
Posts: 18
Joined: July 13th, 2014, 11:48 pm
Vehicle Year: 2003
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler

Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Joshy »

G'day fella's,

Been reading heaps and have been planning to build a stroker for my '03 TJ after throwing a rod. My plans are running about $5.5k (in Australia) in parts and machine work with me porting the heads and assembling the engine. The price also included the exhaust and a piggyback. It's a DD so I was planning a mild cam and was aiming for a reliable 240-250hp.

If you could do it all again and were in my shoes, would you just add another 25% to the build price and put an LS1 with built 4l60e in? It'll need and Engineers Certificate over here which contributes $1k to the cost. I've performed a couple of engine swaps and am familiar with removing VATS and having the auto shift points adjusted by the PCM to suit the gearing. I've also built a few autos and can weld so I can do most of the work myself.

So, $5.5k for a semi-reliable 250hp stoker or $7k for a reliable 350hp+ with less weight, lower weight, better weight distribution and better economy? The 4l60e is a good box when built right and has a low 1st gear too.

Seems like the LS1 is the clear winner. Having never driven a stroker though, is the bottom end and driveability more desirable?

Appreciate any insights.
User avatar
SilverXJ
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5789
Joined: February 14th, 2008, 7:14 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 2000
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Radford, Va

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by SilverXJ »

I think you are underestimating the cost for the LS swap. Especially if you still want your stock gauges to work. It can be done buts its not cheap and requires a lot of time.
Joshy
Noob
Noob
Posts: 18
Joined: July 13th, 2014, 11:48 pm
Vehicle Year: 2003
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Joshy »

What am I missing?

Costs are:
-$3,000 for a low mile 2003 (VX Commodore over here) LS1 with 4l60e, loom and ECU;
-$400 block hugger headers;
-$400 for 3" exhaust and hig flow cat;
-I've got some scrap steel to make custom engine mount brackets. Will just run new OE engine mounts for the LSX;
-$200 to get my PCM reflashed for VATS removal, shift points modded and a performance tune;
-$30 for solder and tape and 3 hours to mod the loom;
-$100 for a Walbro 255L in tank pump. I'd removed the standard filter/reg;
-$90 for a LS1 returnless filter/reg;
-$800 for the 4l60e to np231 adapter;
-$300 for new frictions, steels, band, filter and o-rings for the auto. I can rebuild it and replace the output shaft myself;
-I'd keep the transfer case where it is so front and rear shafts stay the same;
-$100 for alloy pipe and silicon bends for a custom intake;
-I'd keep several of the Jeep sensors for the dash (fuel level, water temp, speedo). It would only be the tacho that doesn't work. It's got a rev limiter.
-$250 for an alloy radiator that fits with the standard LSX hoses;
-$250 for nuts, bolts, belt, hoses etc.
-I'd machine 3/8" off the AC pump bracket to fit closer to the block to clear the frame.
-$1,000 for Engineering
TOTAL = $6,920

Of course that's not covering some consumables like mig wire and welding gas etc. but i've already got those so doesn't add anything to my build.

If you were in my position, which way would you go?

Either option will take me the same amount of time really as i'll leave the LS1 buttoned up.

Cheers
Alexia
Making Progress
Making Progress
Posts: 75
Joined: April 18th, 2012, 6:06 am
Vehicle Year: 1987
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Comanche

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Alexia »

1997+ Jeeps use the data bus exclusively for gauge control.
Joshy
Noob
Noob
Posts: 18
Joined: July 13th, 2014, 11:48 pm
Vehicle Year: 2003
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Joshy »

Yeah I know. Should have spelled that out more clearly. I'd use as many of the standard sensors for the standard ECU that I'd keep just to run the dash. LS1 sensors to run the engine and double up with the Jeep sensors for the dash. I'm told you can run resistors instead of injectors so the Jeep ECU doesn't throw a code.

The question still stands... why a stroker over an LS1? Is it just cos it's cheaper and easier? OR is the bottom end noticeably better?
SkauneJohan
Noob
Noob
Posts: 19
Joined: December 25th, 2013, 7:24 am
Vehicle Year: 1995
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Skauneland (land of scania) the forgotten/ocupied country.....

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by SkauneJohan »

so an quite easily rebuilt stroker and put into the jeep, fits like a glove, works with stock ecu and instruments and atleast here in scania no problems with getting it registered since it looks just like stock



or rebuild/cut/weld half the jeep to put in an USED engine (and here it would never pass inspection)


i would go for a rebuilt engine anytime over a used engine with unknown service history :doh:
2,5" homebuilt catback and rugged ridge steel header (more to come)

dreaming of a stroker
User avatar
SilverXJ
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5789
Joined: February 14th, 2008, 7:14 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 2000
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Radford, Va

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by SilverXJ »

Stroker pros: Stroker is nearly bolt in besides injectors and a tune if you wish. Its cheaper, depending on which route you go.

Stroker cons: Without major work or forced induction you are limited to power increase after that. Limited aftermarket support.

LS pros: The LS1 has MAJOR after market support. Can be built to make more power. Its a V8

LS cons: Getting your stock gauges to work. Custom fab to install. More costly/time to install. Cooling. Passing emissions if you have them.
Jim K in PA
Making Progress
Making Progress
Posts: 87
Joined: January 16th, 2012, 11:13 am
Vehicle Year: 2005
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler
Location: Pocono Mountains, PA

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Jim K in PA »

A couple more items you forgot are:

Two new/modified drive shafts you will need, since the LS has to move forward 3" to clear the firewall. "Minor" firewall tweaks are still needed.
You will need to modify the t-case shifter and linkage.
Transmission shifter may need to come from donor? Cables lengthened on stock shifter? I don't know autos.
Move/modify the belly pan.
Custom radiator hoses.
Custom A/C hoses.
Custom air intake.
Custom power steering lines.
Install the electronic throttle from the donor vehicle (if later than 2002).
Adapt donor vehicle PDC to Jeep harness or run parallel with Jeep PDC.

I also think you are greatly underestimating the time it will take to do the LS swap. You can swap in a stroker in a day. If this matters.

Although you characterize the 4.0 as "semi-reliable", which is potentially understandable considering your rod failure (what happened?), I would catagorize both the LS and the stroker as equally reliable and equally durable, if done right.

I went through this exact same exercise. I was almost at the point of sourcing an engine (I was actually going to use an LY2 4.8). In the end, all the custom work and associated consequences of the transplant were not worth the gains to me over a properly built stroker. It was also going to cost more to do the LY2 swap, as you point out.

In the end it comes down to what you really want, and it sounds like you want a V8 in your TJ. If so, then go for it.
Last edited by Jim K in PA on August 30th, 2014, 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jim K in PA
Making Progress
Making Progress
Posts: 87
Joined: January 16th, 2012, 11:13 am
Vehicle Year: 2005
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler
Location: Pocono Mountains, PA

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Jim K in PA »

I forgot to address your other question about bottom end, which I take to mean the low RPM torque curve.

In my research for the LS swap, I found some really good "dyno" plots for the LY2, LM7,and LQ4 online (factory published). The stroker torque curves I have seen all are "better" under 3500 rpm until you get to the monster LQ4 6 liter. Fatter and flatter torque from 1200-4000 RPM is what I am after. I don't need a V8 for that.

And although the smaller LS engines (4.8, 5.3) may get a bit better mileage than a stroker, the fuel savings does not offset the cost in any reasonable time frame. I want more range from my '05 LJ, so I will just carry more fuel.

These are my findings from my own research. FWIW.

Jim
I6FAN
I made it to triple digits!
I made it to triple digits!
Posts: 172
Joined: March 28th, 2010, 9:31 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.2
Vehicle Year: 1987
Vehicle Make: jeep
Vehicle Model: wrangler

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by I6FAN »

Jack Clifford built his company on the premise that a properly built L6 can and will produce more usable torque in the just-off-idle into the lower rpm ranges. When you start getting into cams that raise the operating rpms, at some point you start getting into territory that would be much better accomplished with a v8. Consider the end use of the vehicle, and make a decision based on that. People pour all kinds of money to hop-up an OEM engine, but they mostly love it for what it is: an original Jeep engine. But if your want insane power levels with modern reliability, your choice is a transplant....
Jim K in PA
Making Progress
Making Progress
Posts: 87
Joined: January 16th, 2012, 11:13 am
Vehicle Year: 2005
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler
Location: Pocono Mountains, PA

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Jim K in PA »

I6Fan speaks the truth.

I had an '88 F250 years ago with the 4.9 (300) six. 5 speed, 2WD. That 300 made less max hp than the 302 V8, but stomped the 5.slow in torque. The owners manual listed the tow rating for the truck based on engine size. Yep, the ol' 300 had a higher tow rating than the 302. I loved drifting that truck around corners in the rain. :D
the grey ghost
I made it to triple digits!
I made it to triple digits!
Posts: 112
Joined: March 31st, 2011, 5:09 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.611
Vehicle Year: 1990
Vehicle Make: jeep
Vehicle Model: comanche

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by the grey ghost »

Oh lets be honest, you know you could do it without any rain B-)
Jim K in PA
Making Progress
Making Progress
Posts: 87
Joined: January 16th, 2012, 11:13 am
Vehicle Year: 2005
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler
Location: Pocono Mountains, PA

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by Jim K in PA »

the grey ghost wrote:Oh lets be honest, you know you could do it without any rain B-)
LOL - Sometimes, depending on the tires. Usually it would just spin the inside tire in the dry (open diff). In the wet, just give it a little Scandinavian flick and nail the skinny pedal. :mrgreen:

That 4.9 made 185hp and 270 lb-ft and got damn near 20mpg on the highway. I am really looking forward to driving my LJ with a 4.6 and north of 240hp and 320 lb-ft. I am hoping for 20mpg.
the grey ghost
I made it to triple digits!
I made it to triple digits!
Posts: 112
Joined: March 31st, 2011, 5:09 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.611
Vehicle Year: 1990
Vehicle Make: jeep
Vehicle Model: comanche

Re: Stroker vs. LS1

Post by the grey ghost »

Yeah its a lot of fun, that's kinda what I'm driving right now
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests