Basic Stroker project started

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Killman
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Stroker Displacement: 4,6
Vehicle Year: 1993
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

John, This boat is Norwegian Colin Archer, famous rescue and pilot boat designed over 100 years ago and still produced according to original drawings. Sure these are available, manufactured at least in Finland but I do not know if any of manufacturers attend to boat shows in states. However, this boat is more than capable to sail across Atlantic so you could as well buy it form Finland. They are available 30foot (as my) and 40 footer. Here is link to manufacturers pages: http://www.kolumbus.fi/haukilahden.veneveistamo/ . I am good friend of owner and couple of years ago even worked with him at his yard building Colin Archers. If you decide to contact him, tell regards from Kari.
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John
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by John »

I am familiar with Colin Archers vast work, great boats somehow I fell in love with the 28 ft blue water BCC's
BCC.jpg
Another pilot boat based on the British working sailboats. But I spent the last 25 years running around the world looking for places to Kayak.
My reference to the sailboats was to see if you knew of a blue water sailor heading to any of the big international shows here that we might get to add 60 pounds of Jeep ballast to transport your way.
John
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Killman
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Stroker Displacement: 4,6
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Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

After some time in other activities I have spent few days and evenings with my stroker project and everything is back together, all connected and fluids in. However, as so meny times before me, it did not start as it used to.
1. Start motor engagement is far from acceptable, flexplate ring is so far ( about 0.6 in / 15 mm from starter assembly surface to ring) that stater engagement is only around 2-3 mm (0.1 in). Any guess why? Is there any possibility to install flexplate wrongly? The bolt pattern appears to be uneven, so it fits in one way only. Right? When I fitted engine and trans together and bolted flexplate to converter, conveter appeared to be 1/2 inch too far so I did "pull" it to contact with flex with tightening bolts gradually one by one. Normal?
2. Once I got it crancking it appeared to have ignition far away from correct and did not start. I moved distributor one teeth back and forth without sucsess. After finally moving two teeth back (spark is coming in advace, right?) it di not crank anymore because non existing engagement between starter and flex ring, so I do not know if it starts now or not. How serious is wrong indexing of distributor? I mean +/- 1 teeth. Yes, spark plug wires are correct. They have labels.

So, tomorrow I think I take trans away and try to figure if there is something wrong in flex installation or trans-engine joint. All ideas-comments-proposalsa are most wellcome, ASAP. ASAP because I will start dimantling trans after about 8 hours from now and if there are other ideas , i would like to know before that.
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John
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by John »

Distributor indexing is very critical, most common problem, it sets our fuel injector pulse timing.Yes the bolt pattern for the flex plate only bolts one way.
John
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Killman
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

I dropped transmission today, took flexplate on the table and compared with old broken one. New one is slightly different but not so much that I can say it is wrong one. To me it seems that crank end and converter anyhow mandates the location of flexplate which is "flexing" as name suggests so that these fixing surfaces flex it and starter ring is then were it comes. Now I decided to machine from start motor surface 4-5 mm away so that it goes further in. Also I think to cut the Al plate, which is between the motor and trans, away from the starter area and gain another 2 mm. Am I alone with this problem or has someone experienced same?

Then starting problem. I was wondering what happens when cranking begins? Is cam sensor giving 1st cylinder TDC at compression info and then crank sensor counts holes in flex and based on that computer starts ignition sequence? So, if distributor is off the firing sequence it may start "with wrong foot" and that is why it may detonate in exhaust or intake manifold and clearly sounds that something is totally wrong? Is this anywhere correct assumption?

I have checked some distributor indexing threads, but I have not found exact info how to do and how too check that it is correct. Only that put No 1 to TDC in compression and see that rotor points to No 1 ignition pole. Is this accurate enough? I doupt. What may be maximum ignition advance? If rotor points No 1 pole at TDC then with advance it not yet at pole to give spark. Any hands on experience?

Yes, and this is -93 wannabee HO: HO electricals and -89 block and head.
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John
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by John »

I think you will find the indexing information here. http://www.contentedits.com/img.asp?id=3826
John
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Killman
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

Thaks John, I have the manuals but I need guys who did the job with aftermarket cam where indexing may not be as accarate. Is there any way to detect what is the point when cam sensor tells that now we are t TDC?
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John
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by John »

Have you tried to detect the voltage to #1 fuel injector?
John
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Killman
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

With a help of couple of glass wine I think I recall were I may have gone wrong. After carefully degreeing cam (twice) I adjusted distributor to same as before dismantling. With new Compcam it still may not be in same position. But when I had engine in I removed distributor to prime oil pressure (it nicely lifted oil up through lift rods) I may have installed it back to wrong teeth because crank was not aligned to anything.

Any ideas to my flexplate-starter problem? Nobody had this anything like this?

Now (thaks for wine) I recall another thing why this beast do not start (when starter occationally engages), my CPS sensor is slightly inclined so I propably hit it with flexplate when I first istalled motor to trans. It is not much inclined but I noticed it, do you think that might be the culprint? I guess it might need to point straight down.
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John
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by John »

The cps alignment/reliability doesn't respond well to being struck.
John
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oletshot
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by oletshot »

Sorry, I've been away for awhile and haven't keep up to speed (restoring an old Yamaha 650 has taken all my time lately). I skimmed over the old posts to review but didn't see any info on how you solved the "head/intake misalingment" problem?
I would go out of my way to replace that renix head with any HO head. People who say the renix head isn't that bad aren't taking into account that your HO intake manifold is not lining up anywhere NEAR correctly and any porting you do to make them match a little more is PROBABALY going to kill your low lift velocity. in other words low RPM torque will disapear. The "dogleg" you create trying to match the renix port to the higher HO intake will kill velocity and probably ruin higher RPM flow as well.
1bolt, I realize this is month's old, but my comment on the renix's flow compared to 7120's flow DID taken into account the intake and head were not lined up. It was the very first thing I said. So to clearify, no matter which head and intake are used, the most important thing here is to make sure the head and intake actually line up. He could use the Renix head (I believe he did) and modify the HO intake to match by modifying the mounting holes if possible or just use a Renix intake manifold. They are alot cheaper than 7120 heads. Seems alot of people aren't remembering that he is Europe and 7120 heads are hard to come by. It would be much cheaper to EBAY an intake and have it shipped rather than a head. Just my 2 cents.
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Killman
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Stroker Displacement: 4,6
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Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

Oleshot, I did just match head and manifold as well as possible and must wait until I get either head or manifold. Must be like this for now.

Medicine for this start motor problem was machining from start motor 7 mm ( 0.3 in) away so that it went further in. Other manmade problem was that CPS was destroyed, possibly during first time when I did mate motor to transmission and did hit sensor wit flexplate edge. This is again proving that one dollar mechanic makes five dollar damage :oops: I shimmed CPS also 3 mm ( 0.1 in) further away so that it would not be destroyed by flex ring.

However, it started duly after around 10 sec cranking and sounded like very very rich mixture. This however improved some when temperature rose. I broke cam in by running around 20 min 2000-2500 rpm but I had to stop in between because I bloody forgot to put electric fan sensor in radiator and temperatures started to rise. Luckily I was watching instruments closely because I have had temperature problems and I was expecting something to happen.

Another unexpected minor problem was that new frost plugs were leaking, at least two of them. Must fix that also tomorrow.

Tomorrow after changing oil and filter I will gradually take this beast on road and hope that road tests will be OK. Mostly I am expecting cooling problems but we will see.
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Killman
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Stroker Displacement: 4,6
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Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

Now my XJ is back home and first 100 km is behind. Pulls nice and idle is good after I found half cut MAP sensor tube, fixed it with tape. But running warmer than convenient is still a problem. I try tomorrow get front of car as high as possible to get possibly trapped air out.

It started sputtering and shooting to tailpipe for same time but then fixed it self. This is not nice to know that there might be something wrong that comes back. Clearly something to do with electrics. Can this be something like ECU/PCM learning curve after 2 months power off???

But all in all, it now responds throttle much better and power is clealry more than before. And it is not bad that now it sounds like offroad car engine should, or maybe just my imagination. Now I must try to drive as much as possible to break it in. Next competition is only 4 weeks away.
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Killman
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Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by Killman »

Final (?) verdict:

I have now two competitions behind and no other stroker problems than some (near) over heating what in fact was expected. I did replace radiator with new original one but did not help much. Also some tranny overheating but this has nothing to do with stroking, I guess.

What she ate:
CompCam 68-232-4
4.2 12 CW cranck shaft
4.2 rods
Over bore 0.3"
No decking block or head
0.043 head gasket
Omix Ada standard 0.3 pistons, dish unknown, propably 13cc
Ford 24 lbs injectors ("blue top")

What else:
Timing chain and sprockets
Lapping valves
Polishing combustion chambers
Normal machining cranck and block
Cam and crank bearings, naturally
Porting (see topick)
New OEM water pump and oil pump
Flex Plate (see topick)
Starter motor (see topick)
OEM radiator

Sofar my valvetrain is quiet, I used liberally installation fluid which was supplied with cam and used highest ZDDP containing oil available normally at market (no special racing oils). ZDDP content about 1550. This 10-30 I will use in future as standard.

Yet to be done:
MAP adjuster, done but not installed
Install 3 el fan instead 1original and 1 after market el fan
Add more or change bigger tranny oil cooler
Improve ventilation with bonnet grilles. When axle deep in mud no escape route for cooling air.

All-in-all, worth of effort, sounds like real offroad machine.

I continue if anything special comes up.

Regards, Team Offsailors (in picture my co-pilot)

Image
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John
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Re: Basic Stroker project started

Post by John »

Find some hood louvers and dump some heat from the top. Looking like it turned out pretty well.
John
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