Gonridnu's stroker build

Project vehicle blogs or "mod diary" specific threads only.. Pics encouraged!!
Post Reply
lafrad
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 357
Joined: February 25th, 2009, 10:40 am

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by lafrad »

I thought all the mains were drilled through to the oil galley?!?

This other post suggest the mains are to the galley?
http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... 437#p13908


Are only some of them to the galley and some of them to the cam bearings?
User avatar
SilverXJ
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5789
Joined: February 14th, 2008, 7:14 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 2000
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Radford, Va

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by SilverXJ »

The mains are fed directly from the main oil gallery/lifter gallery.
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong because I only toolk a quick look at the block and determined the "primary" oil galley (so as not to be confused with a main bearing oil galley) runs the length of the block at about the same height as the lifter bores. Oil is fed through passages that first pass by the backside of the cam bearings and then down to the main bores finally oiling the mains and rods.

This would be similar to a Big Block Mopar and opposite of the oiling style of Chevrolets which are considered to have "priority main" oiling systems, which is to say they oil the main bearings first and then residual or "extra" oil is then sent to the lifters and cam bearings. Priority main oiling is considered superior for consistancy of pressure to the mains and rods where it is most important.

The grooves on the backside of the #2 & #3 cam bearings allow you to clock the oil feed relative to the lifter load. In order to optimize the hydrodynamic wedge, it is best to place the oil hole at about 60 degrees after load in the direction of rotation. These are pretty long camshafts to only have four bearings so I figured I'd use these bearings to my advantage. Why they did not apply it to the #4 cam bearing I don't know, and I don't know any of the engineeers over there so someone else will need to make that call. A lot of times special sets like this are to address a known issue.

Internal groovng of the #1 cam bearing, which also precludes grooving the back too, seems like a good idea to me as the load from the timing set is carried there. Obviously, I'm not going to be doing any testing on these but the design seems sound so I bought 'em.

Again I don't know how much more they cost but it couldn't be much because I had the shop order hard seats and cam bearings at the same time direct from Dura Bond and they were under $30....
lafrad
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 357
Joined: February 25th, 2009, 10:40 am

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by lafrad »

Okay.

without getting into the topic of *where* the cam bearings are oiling within their 360* circle of influence, I seem to remember that every main bearing is drilled to the main Oil Galley that runs from one end of the engine to the other. The cam bearings are also drilled through to that same galley. I don't remember if the lifter bores are "open" to that galley, or if they are drilled to it. Problem is, i did this many months ago and i just can't, for the life of me, remember checking that some mains would be oiled one way, and others would be another way. (4 cam bearings to 7 main bearings seems like it wouldn't really survive if oiled from the cam.

Come to think of it, I must have verified that every main was oiled from the main oil passage... I ran 360* oiling on 6 of the 7 main bearings... all the rods get 360* of oil. Its definitely noticed, 5W-30 oil, HOT, nets about 22-25 psi with the high volume pump. there is definitely a LOT more oil moving through those... and its a good thing, I did it primarily to get more oil slung up at the camshaft.


Now, with respect to that, i do understand why you would want to add extra oil to the cam bearings, at different points in their surface. its another good trick for longevity!

Anyway.. Back to your build! Sorry for interrupting!
User avatar
SilverXJ
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5789
Joined: February 14th, 2008, 7:14 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 2000
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Radford, Va

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by SilverXJ »

The main gallery is the lifter bore gallery. It feeds the cam bearings and the crank bearings.

Edit: Now that I have the chance to think about it and look at the block, the oil pump feeds the lifter/mail gallery. That then feds the galleries for the crank bearings. The cam bearings intersect the crank bearing galleries on main bearing gallery 1, 3, 5 and 7. Also, the #1 cam journal passes oil trough the camshaft to the cam sprocket to the timing chain.
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

Day 17....

I called Silvolite/KB and spoke with my friend there. SilverXJ is absolutely correct in that the material was changed some time in 08 for the pistons and they are including the wrong instruction sheet with them. The new tolerance is .002" to .003" for street aspirated and .003-.004" for street towing. I'm not terribly happy nor concerned about their mistake as I am still in the range but I would have probably kept it closer to .003"....oh well, not much I can do at this point.

He emailed me the correct instruction sheet so I can post it to this site and I will do that next week 'cause i gotta leave for rodeo today. Perhaps U guys can make it a sticky so this doesn't happen to anyone else?

I got the pistons loaded in the block and the rotating assembly feels great. I put the cam in and used Joe Gibbs assembly grease on the lobes and the red torco assembly lube we use on most everything else on the bearing surfaces. Before anyone gets in a huff over assembly lube, a packet of Joe Gibbs grease came with the camshaft from Erson (it's what I would have used anyway), when the cam manufacturers include it with their products it is just another indicator of the quality of the stuff. The cam called for 110 intake centerline and it came in at 109 so once the chain stretches a little it will be right where it is supposed to be. I'll check some other specs next week just 'cause I like to, but the intake centerline method is usually sufficient to get you there.

I had ordered some brand new stock valve springs with my other parts 'cause it looked like they would work. Today I confirmed my installed height with the LS1 valves and keepers using the stock jeep retainers (although I still have to do a finish grind on the valve job) and it appears that with a .060" shim they will install at 95 lbs on the seat and 225 lbs open with about .100" to coil bind on my cam. I feel comfortable with this in a lower RPM hydraulic cam application and it will eliminate any valve cover clearance issues others are having with aftermarket springs.

ONE LAST NOTE OF MAJOR IMPORTANCE....

The 12cw crank has 4 little nubs on it on the center rod throws that hit REALLY hard on the main stud girdle. Had I known this before hand I would have just ground/machined them off before balancing but Monday I will take the crank out and grind/machine them off and re-balance. I will take pics of them for the next guy that does this so he can take care of this before taking his parts to the machine shop.....The rods looked like they had pretty good clearance but I couldn't tell for sure because the nubs were lifting the girdle up at least .100" as they came by. I'm kinda kicking myself for not catching it when I checked crank clearance and endplay but I didn't put the girdle on on that day.... you win some and lose some...
User avatar
SilverXJ
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5789
Joined: February 14th, 2008, 7:14 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 2000
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Cherokee
Location: Radford, Va

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by SilverXJ »

One other thing to note on the piston install sheet is that they tell you to install the pistons backwards, at least on mine it did.

You can use hardened wasters as spacers to move the main girdle away from the crank.
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

Day 18....

I took it apart today and ground the nubs of the number 2 and number 5 rod throws on the 12 CW crank. I forgot my phone so no pics but they had to be about .200" - .300" tall and protruded well past the rods. Rebalanced the entire assembly, cleaned, and reinstalled the crankshaft. Then retorqued rods and mains. Then re-degreed the cam. Gotta love doing things more than once:)

I couldn't put the timing cover on 'cause my buddy forgot to order the plastic timing chain guide that inserts into the cover so hopefully the dealer or Napa have one I can get tomorrow. How sad is it that Cloyes didn't include one with their $140 timing set and show it as a separate number. There are way cheaper timing sets come with guides for other engines. Kinda doesn't matter though because my oil pan does not fit over the NVH stud girdle. See my post under "2 different oil pans" for details on that disaster.

If I had this to do over again I would have machined part of the balance pad off the bottom of the rods for clearance. That would have eliminated the need for a washer with no real downside. By putting the hardened washer on the studs it moves the crimped locking portion of the nut right up to the top of the threads on the stud so loktite will be have to be the answer. I would have much prefered the mechanical locking feature of the nut AND loktite!

I hate to even think it, but if this oil pan clearance issue becomes a big problem I may pull the piston/rod assemblies out and do just that however it will be a major pain in the arse 'cause everything is together....again:(

Today is my b-day so we're gonna go out and have a drink but hopefully someone can answer this pan question by the time we get home...BTW my daughter came in second in Team Roping this weekend even with a 10 second barrier penalty. One more top 5 finish and she'll qualify for state finals...that's pretty cool!

Tomorrow I might finish the cylinder head it needs some more bowl work where we opened it up for the LS1 valves, a gasket match, and surface and then I can finish putting this thing together.....
omegatron
Donator
Donator
Posts: 60
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 9:32 pm
Vehicle Year: 1992
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: Wrangler

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by omegatron »

Happy B Day! The build looks good...and good idea about removing material from the back side of the rod! Hope that works 'cuz the oil pan thing sounds like a pain for everyone! Keep the pics coming!
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

Thank you OMega.....

I'm gonna post this here also (already posted in general tech) 'cause it's of grave concern at this point...
I tried to put my '89 XJ Renix oil pan on the NVH shortblock today and guess what.... It hits hard on the main stud girdle near the front of the block. I only have the girdle spaced up like .060" with one hardened washer and the pan is sitting a bit higher than that in the front (i didn't measure it). Even with the gasket it is hitting the pan. Soooooo does anybody know if the later NVH pans are just slightly deeper near the front? I'd hate to throw away the girdle after all this......
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

Day 19....

It was one of those tedious days where everything went sloooooow. That coupled with the fact that I was pretty hungover from my b-day made for a long kinda unproductive day but I did make some headway.

For starters I put some ARP washers under the main bolts to raise the girdle. The rule of thumb is 1.5 times bolt diameter of thread engagement which is exactly what the stock arrangement is. The ARP washers I swiped from a main bolt kit that was laying around were .110" so I lost about 1.5 threads of main bolt engagement but there is still quite a bit of engagement and I'm comfortable with it. If you do this be sure to use the chamfered washers that come with a bolt kit and face the chamfer towards the the head to clear the radius. With the washers installed I have .070" clearance from the main girdle to the closest rod. The nuts that hold the girdle are utilizing the mechanical locking mechanism and loctite so that worked out well.

I also found a pack of 3/8 ARP washers w/o chamfer in the garage this morning and they are also .110" thick so for U guys that want to go the other route U can get them and not have to stack washers....

To get my oil pan to fit I ground a little on the front of the girdle as that was where it was hitting the hardest. Really didn't take much off just backed it up about .050" and rounded the leading edge a little. With the girdle in place I snugged the pan bolts up a little w/o a gasket in place and heated the bottom of the pan with a torch to red heat. Once it was good and hot I tightened the pan bolts up which basically built some clearance into the pan so that when I cam back with a gasket there was no interference issue.

Napa had the timing chain guide in stock so I was able to install the cover and the pan. I put the oil filter housing on and a couple other pieces of hardware so this thing is essentially shortblocked. ....
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

Degreeing the cam...I usually use intake centerline method first and then check the individual events.....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

The ARP washer under the main bolt
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

it's hard to see cause it's a phone pic but here is the minor bit of work to the girdle.....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
gonridnu
Movin on up ^
Movin on up ^
Posts: 332
Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 9:36 am
Stroker Displacement: 4.6L
Vehicle Year: 1989
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: XJ 2 door

Re: Gonridnu's stroker build

Post by gonridnu »

And the pan....with a gasket it clears very nicely
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests