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Tuning with MS3X

Performance mods and Advanced Stroker discussion.
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The Beast
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Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 9th, 2018, 1:51 pm

Oi people! Been here for a long time but I've just been reading, think I got two posts hahaha! I'm keeping my first post really short and will come back later to append it in more detail.

Anyway as the title says I have bought a MS unit not too long ago can't find much about the 4.0L tuning with megasquirt unless it's some ridiculous turbo install with a different engine and what not,.. or Miata's! (all over the damn place! ;p) I digress, anyway, Big cam 4.7 Roller Stroker. No base map or nothing and a little confused about what to use for ignition. I would like to use the factory distributor and what looks could be possible the ICM as well (88 Renix flavour), try to keep the sensors factory.

Figured I'd start a thread. ATM could just speculate for a bit (I have to right now go to work!) and come back later tonight to get into more detail. Throw a bunch of questions if ye want, I'll try to answer everything.
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

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SkylinesSuck
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by SkylinesSuck » November 9th, 2018, 10:09 pm

A couple people in here have done MS. Are you asking questions or looking to answer them?

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The Beast
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 9th, 2018, 10:59 pm

OK I'm back. Pretty windy and snowy tonight! No mess but not nice out lol.

So as I mentioned before I figure I wanted to start my own thread and have a place to come to for some ideas or record what I have done or plan to do. As mentioned as well there is not much info out there that's "straight forward" or even available as I notice a lot of people run to PM's on boards when it comes to critical info. I will not do that here, if at some point I manage to get a base map working or settings that will help some newbies maybe if they have similar setups or maybe want to follow the same setup, hopefully they will be of some use to them. There was another member here that was in a similar situation I think and his thread went dead after a few months. Looked promising actually, another guy mentioned he got his MS to work very well but no info either. Well anyway...

My problem is where to start. Aside from the ignition and building a few tables everything else is pretty straight forward. So I guess my first question is can I use my Renix dizzy to capture a signal for the MS3(X) natively? For some reason the info I find on the net are from people that decided they wanted to use a ford distributor. So I find a lot of modified Ford dizzy threads, I really want to avoid that. At the moment I'm using a Streetfire CDI box which was actually working really well. I've read through the manual and it did mention a CDI driven ignition but it was without too much detail, I assumed it was common and figured was straight forward. It does provide the use of a white wire and normal hookup and settings to make in the tuner but I had to use the ICM to get it to run with the Renix ECU thus far. I'm assuming I can just straight hook it up and do away with my brand new ICM lol. I'm like 95% sure but I need to know that I can run the Renix dizzy with it cause I don't want to change that.

Second question is the base maps or tables (whichever is preferred) to start with. I've got nothing to start with and TunerStudio says I sholuldn't really do that :S. Is there any comprehensive walkthroughs or at least some sort of process laid out to get started? It seems to run ok enough with the Renix ECU mapping. Which I should say it's JUST good enough to drive for a bit before it gets all bent out of shape. Does anyone have info/map of the stock ECU? Maybe use that as a beginning template? Good idea bad idea?

Massive amounts of fuel is being dumped and the ignition needs lots of advancement at the top end it seems. It's hard to describe, it seems to need it earlier than what it's getting now. My map adjuster is pretty much useless now but I can at least lean it a bit so that partial throttle work a bit better but that goes to shit above 1800rpm. If I put it nice for the top end it'll stall and bog badly plus a lot of black smoke from unburnt fuel when the RPM comes down. It worked perfectly fine before the build, I believe it's still working as it always did but that cam I put in is (I think) is just beyond the stock ECU and the map adjuster this time. I will mention it is a 505 roller cam. It's not a big of a cam really lol but it's a bit bigger than my previous one. I don't have the full specs right now but got some basic info. It's a 226/234, 571 on a 114 centerline.

Well anywho I got the kit and I'll make it work for me one way or the other. Not really nervous or anything about it, kind of excited actually. I believe the end result will be good and the learning experience will make it worth it. Man, writing late at night is usually not the best thing to do lol.
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

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The Beast
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 9th, 2018, 11:04 pm

SkylinesSuck wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 10:09 pm
A couple people in here have done MS. Are you asking questions or looking to answer them?
I should have said clearly that I'm asking questions but I was referring to any info I was missing that I would answer the best I can to help this out. I was in a bit of a rush and I figured I could drum up some attention for when I was done working tonight. Hopefully after this the thread could help others get started in the right direction if needed. :D
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by SkylinesSuck » November 10th, 2018, 5:19 am

Thanks for contributing! If you search, I think the other threads are pretty recent. You guys might all be able to help each other out.

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The Beast
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 11th, 2018, 1:07 pm

Ok so I read the MS3X manual now and had seen that they use quite a few different configurations for cam timing. From what I read a trigger wheel can be used or the hall effect sensor built into a Distributor/ECM setup. So, from what I can see the 4.0L dizzy uses a "half moon" style (as MS would put it) of signal generator.

OK In the end I want to use the stock ICM and distributor, first option I want would to use that and use the ECU square wave signal wire and then use the tach signal wire from the ICM for the MSECU. Also use the half moon configuration in the distributor for cam signal generation for the MS. I imagine it would be something wrong with this seeing that it would be easy just hooking a few wires for a Jeep Renix, Murphey's Law will play in here some how.

Any issues with this? I'll make another post later after looking at the MS3X boards. Because I'm not sure that combo will work with sequential fuel, I imagine it shouldn't have a problem. :wiggle:
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

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The Beast
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 11th, 2018, 3:03 pm

Found a thread here to give some insight:
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&t=50300

Not much info on hookup really or cam input info, just turns into another PM answering on forum board again. Appears they used the original equipment though, which sounds good to me. He sent the Spark A output on the MS3X board to the ICM and controlled it that way but not sure about the cam input.

Just registered to the MS3X board. Aside from a few pics, most datalogs and everything are not accessible lol.

Well I'm gonna do some more reading and figuring. Maybe I'll find some stuff.
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

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The Beast
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Location: Guelph ON Canada

Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 14th, 2018, 11:48 am

Not much new, I picked up a plug and adapter to hopefully run the box from here. I am going to try the sync generator leads with it first.
It uses a signal positive and negative and a engine ground from what I see. So the MS should be able to use that. I don't think I need a
pull-up resister but I think I have some laying around just in case. Tach in can come from the ICM.

Got my weather packs today so I can get started on it. Pretty cold out though, might take a while to get back to this.
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

LRSimons
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by LRSimons » November 14th, 2018, 6:53 pm

Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier! When I did my MS3 there was very little info out there as well and I've been meaning to do a writeup at some point.

Anyhow- On my 95 all the stock sensors were able to be used and work well. You need the crank sensor wired into the main input and the cam sensor (half moon thing in the dizzy) wired into a secondary input. Think I used JS10. Pull up resistors are required on both! Took me some troubleshooting to figure that out.

That's the only tricky part. Set the ignition mode to jeep 2000 (?) and you'll be good to go. All the other sensors are easy resitive type and I think all of mine were supported in TS. If the renix sensors are not supported a calibration may be necessary.



In terms of a base map and tuning, doing it yourself is the only real way to do it. I looked all over for ignition maps and found nothing exact. For your application, look around for other 2v big cam maps. Chevy sbc and bbc stuff as well as the later 302 applications should get you close. From there, dyno if your setup will remain mostly the same in the forseeable future. If not, street tuning is more cost effective but less precise obviously.

My map is pretty good (although hard to know without a dyno) but I have essentially a boosted stock 4.0. First casualty so far is the head gasket, confirmed blown after 1000 or so miles of boost. Burning coolant. Still going to run it until I get a motor built.

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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by LRSimons » November 14th, 2018, 7:00 pm

Also, if you don't have a wideband tuning fuel will be near impossible. For tuning fuel, shoot for 14:1 around idle, 12.5:1 wide open or high load, 15:1 highway cruise, 16:1 low speed cruise. Nice smooth transitions between all. Make small adjustments at first (1 or 2 ve units). Keep in mind the ve values are not going to flow smoothly like an ignition map should, engine will need more fuel at tq peak and will drop after that.


General guidelines obviously. There are some good guides on diyautotune website. Start out slow and have someone good at following exact instructions drive!

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The Beast
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 14th, 2018, 11:24 pm

Thanks! Good to know! I had just got a power source rigged up here just now so I can get it setup. I got three manuals open here just reading and going through lol.

This version does support the Renix trigger. I'm hoping it would be simple enough not to worry about it. I remember reading something about the resisters, I'll have to look for it again. There was another little quirk someone had using it trying to get it to set at Renix 66-2-2-2. Have to look for that too, cause I don't remember haha! :P

As far as fuel goes, I'll be getting some wide bands. They sell a dual setup that both show up on gauge with ratio and lambda. Nice little unit and can be hooked up strait to it with the controller, will be good for the dual collector. I wanted to use the autotune feature for first actual driving. I was watching a few of the Mega-meet classes on YouTube and he showed that it can really cut down on fiddling. I could build a map based on your fuel guideline and start there.

I was planning on building an ignition map roughly the same as my engine architecture, I was gonna look that up tomorrow but now it would be easier just to follow that guideline instead. I guess I should retard the entire table like 2-3 degrees and work back up again?
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

LRSimons
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by LRSimons » November 15th, 2018, 8:09 pm

Pull up resistors are fairly easy to install. I put a 10k resistor connecting the power wire to the sensor to the signal wire. Then splice in "downstream". I I left the signal wires going to wherever they were going stock as I didn't know what one ran the tach. Been working fine so far.

Good idea to start low on the ignition map and work up. It's not too hard to get it close, but nearly impossible to get it exact while street tuning.

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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by LRSimons » November 15th, 2018, 8:12 pm

What kind of IAC does the renix have? The obd1 has a 4 wire stepper motor type one that was not too hard to set up. I highly recommend setting the IAC up, makes idle tuning very easy.

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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 15th, 2018, 10:11 pm

Yeah, I wouldn't think I could road tune ignition too much. It can run knock but I'd just set it to safe levels bring it
to a dyno and let the tuner sprinkle on the extra bald eagles. ;)

The Renix also uses the GM 4 wire stepper. I had just reinstalled it not long ago to get the current setup to idle better.
MS3 also uses the stepper as you know and I haven't been in the box yet but there's a good chance the internal hook up
is not there. I'll check it anyway and install the jumper wires if it isn't.

In the ECU the manual says to connect:
JS0 to IAC1A
JS1 to IAC1B
JS2 to IAC2A
JS3 to IAC2B
And then
JS9(+12V) to S12C

It should run it directly and be automatically configured. So I imagine a bit of soldering and then set to run in TS.
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

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The Beast
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Re: Tuning with MS3X

Post by The Beast » November 15th, 2018, 10:18 pm

I should say to that it does come with diagrams for different builds of idle stepper, it's all in the ms3x manual. So I need to follow that too.
My Jeep is like having a conversation with two lions, in both my ears, inside my head, from the outside.... I hear good things from them!

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