I noticed that too...I just figured it was just me.SIXPAK wrote:Maybe just my eye but why is there so much of a difference in the valve spring seat height on #6? Personally i would be pulling number six rod and piston, cant hurt.
Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
- NickInTimeFilms
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Alright, my engine guy says if there are no metal particles in the oil, then the chance of bearing failure is very low. Now I'm not too familiar with the metals that go into bearings but when I drained the oil I help up a magnet to the draining fluid and nothing stuck to it. The oil did have a bit of a sparkly gold tinge floating on the top compared to the darker oil. Would that be a product of break in additives or anything like that or is that the bad metal? I still have both of the old oil filters with a little left in them if tearing them apart may help diagnosis.
This is a picture of the first oil change after 250 miles (Note most of the dark oil at the top was left over from a different vehicle):
I found this picture online which very closely resembles what mine looked like after the second oil change at 650 miles:
It was a very fine consistency floating on top of the majority of darker oil underneath, like metallic paint, nothing big enough to pick up. Is this an indication of spun bearings or the like?
If this is normal wear, where should I go from here. Anything else I should check before I tear the head off a second time and bring it to my engine guy? Should I pull the oil pan to check anything on the bottom end? Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
This is a picture of the first oil change after 250 miles (Note most of the dark oil at the top was left over from a different vehicle):
I found this picture online which very closely resembles what mine looked like after the second oil change at 650 miles:
It was a very fine consistency floating on top of the majority of darker oil underneath, like metallic paint, nothing big enough to pick up. Is this an indication of spun bearings or the like?
If this is normal wear, where should I go from here. Anything else I should check before I tear the head off a second time and bring it to my engine guy? Should I pull the oil pan to check anything on the bottom end? Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
You could pull the #6 rod cap off with just the oil pan off and check the bearing.
Also could measure, at the rocker, the valve lift and see if #6 I or E have less lift than the other cylinders.
With all the rockers off, were all the valve stem heights at the same level? straight edge across all the stems.
Still sounds like the engine will be coming out
Also could measure, at the rocker, the valve lift and see if #6 I or E have less lift than the other cylinders.
With all the rockers off, were all the valve stem heights at the same level? straight edge across all the stems.
Still sounds like the engine will be coming out
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Alright, only had an hour to mess with the Jeep today so I figured I'd try and measure cam lobe lift on the rockers. Only problem is the lifters keep bleeding down so data isn't easy to compare. Should I try and rig my dial indicator to the pushrod without tension or something like that to get more accurate readings? I'll look into it more tonight after work.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Yes, remove the rockers and set the dial indicator on a push rod. Try to get the push rod to stay as straight as possible through the whole cycle.
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- NickInTimeFilms
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Alright, got more testing done and I think I found a winner. Today's tests:
- Tried to repeat the ticking by doing another compression test but no luck. Couldn't hear the tap while cranking on 6 or any others so that is a bust.
- Measured Camshaft Lift and data shows all the lobes are fine. Measurements +/- 1thou:
Intake Exhaust
- 3I: 278 - 3E: 286
- 4I: 280 - 4E: 286
- 5I: 279 - 5E: 285
- 6I: 279 - 6E: 284
- Layed a Straight Edge across Rocker Mounts, Valve Stem Tops, and Valve Spring Seats and all were level
- Carefully Inspected flexplate for cracks, but nothing was found
- Took off the oil pan to properly poke about underneath and noticed piston 6 has a noticeable gap between the skirt and bore. Turning the crank back and forth makes the gap open and close and none of the other pistons show this. There is scoring on the passenger side skirt, the driver side is smooth:
Piston 6 Passenger Side
Piston 6 Driver Side
Piston 6 No Bore Gap
Piston 6 Bore Gap
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnW-15Eeq50
So it looks like it was piston slap this whole time, who woulda thunk. Engine guy says I should pull the head again and pull the piston out to check for bore damage and decide what to do from there whether we drop in a new piston or pull the block and bore it out again. Opinions, thoughts? This has been quite a trip, but I feel we are closing in now finally.
- Tried to repeat the ticking by doing another compression test but no luck. Couldn't hear the tap while cranking on 6 or any others so that is a bust.
- Measured Camshaft Lift and data shows all the lobes are fine. Measurements +/- 1thou:
Intake Exhaust
- 3I: 278 - 3E: 286
- 4I: 280 - 4E: 286
- 5I: 279 - 5E: 285
- 6I: 279 - 6E: 284
- Layed a Straight Edge across Rocker Mounts, Valve Stem Tops, and Valve Spring Seats and all were level
- Carefully Inspected flexplate for cracks, but nothing was found
- Took off the oil pan to properly poke about underneath and noticed piston 6 has a noticeable gap between the skirt and bore. Turning the crank back and forth makes the gap open and close and none of the other pistons show this. There is scoring on the passenger side skirt, the driver side is smooth:
Piston 6 Passenger Side
Piston 6 Driver Side
Piston 6 No Bore Gap
Piston 6 Bore Gap
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnW-15Eeq50
So it looks like it was piston slap this whole time, who woulda thunk. Engine guy says I should pull the head again and pull the piston out to check for bore damage and decide what to do from there whether we drop in a new piston or pull the block and bore it out again. Opinions, thoughts? This has been quite a trip, but I feel we are closing in now finally.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
I would pull it and check it like he said. Might get away with a hone quickly and one slug. Gotta pull it to see thought
That is the noise for sure.
That is the noise for sure.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Passenger side is the thrust side so if it`s going to score that is the logical place.
Pull it and see. Hopefully the softer piston took the abuse rather then the bore.
Pull it and see. Hopefully the softer piston took the abuse rather then the bore.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Was the bore done too big? 0.050" or is the piston too small? 0.000" instead of 0.030" as marked.
My bet is that the machinist bored the hole too big.
Good find.
My bet is that the machinist bored the hole too big.
Good find.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Wow, interesting, so it turned out to be the piston...I had a feeling, but I really hoped that I was wrong. Your noise was similar to mine in my first build, and in your video the engine sort of made a double knock and I read somewhere that a double knock usually means pistons.
Could be broken rings from overheating hopefully? If they are broken rings, make sure that you have good ring gaps the next time you install. I've had mechanics look at me like I'm crazy when I asked them about ring gaps, and some say that they just install the rings without checking; I didn't listen to them. Check for misshapen bore or piston, and when you pull the piston check to see if the piston rocks easy or if it's stiff on the rod; I've read that a piston that's stiff on the rod will cause scuffing. There are other things that cause scuffing, so try to find out what went wrong. It's does look like a huge gap though, but it also looks like nothing is keeping it stable in the bore, like it's rocking in there as you move the crank.
Could be broken rings from overheating hopefully? If they are broken rings, make sure that you have good ring gaps the next time you install. I've had mechanics look at me like I'm crazy when I asked them about ring gaps, and some say that they just install the rings without checking; I didn't listen to them. Check for misshapen bore or piston, and when you pull the piston check to see if the piston rocks easy or if it's stiff on the rod; I've read that a piston that's stiff on the rod will cause scuffing. There are other things that cause scuffing, so try to find out what went wrong. It's does look like a huge gap though, but it also looks like nothing is keeping it stable in the bore, like it's rocking in there as you move the crank.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Another possibility is that the machinist didn't remove enough material from the connecting rod small end causing the piston to bind in the bore at BDC when the rod angle is at its greatest.jeepxj3 wrote: Was the bore done too big? 0.050" or is the piston too small? 0.000" instead of 0.030" as marked.
My bet is that the machinist bored the hole too big.
Good find.
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- NickInTimeFilms
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
He didn't remove any material and claimed it was unnecessary because the pistons are made for the rods. How can you tell if material needs to be taken off, will you feel it bind or would I see marks on the the piston? If it turns out that is the issue then I'm gonna be a little unhappy with himCheromaniac wrote:
Another possibility is that the machinist didn't remove enough material from the connecting rod small end causing the piston to bind in the bore at BDC when the rod angle is at its greatest.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Dino brought up a good point to Double-check
In the last year so ICON has been clearanceing the undersides of their Pistons more.
Some of the balance pads on the small end can get pretty bulky. For this reason I have used .931 pin that I've polished
- .001 so I can slide the pen through before I install the Pistons on the rods to check for any kind of interference.
Although ring end gap should always be checked, it's rarely a problem unless there mised boxed.
My procedure is I use a plumbous stone to knock the sharp edges off before sliding them in the cylinder bores and check with a feeler gauge.
It's when you're running hypereutectic pistons that will bite you in the #ss.
Because of that style of piston retaining its heat, the top ring requires approximately 40% more end gap.
Russ
In the last year so ICON has been clearanceing the undersides of their Pistons more.
Some of the balance pads on the small end can get pretty bulky. For this reason I have used .931 pin that I've polished
- .001 so I can slide the pen through before I install the Pistons on the rods to check for any kind of interference.
Although ring end gap should always be checked, it's rarely a problem unless there mised boxed.
My procedure is I use a plumbous stone to knock the sharp edges off before sliding them in the cylinder bores and check with a feeler gauge.
It's when you're running hypereutectic pistons that will bite you in the #ss.
Because of that style of piston retaining its heat, the top ring requires approximately 40% more end gap.
Russ
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Pulled the head off again and popped the piston out. I'm getting pretty good at tearing this thing apart now.
No broken rings but the top ring was worn all the way down to the piston surface on the thrust side when pushed into the groove, at that point the piston started contacting the bore. Engine guy said full skirt wear only on one side sounds like no oil was getting to that piston. It kinda matches up with when the issues first started. 40*f out, thick rotella t1 30w oil, Pennsylvania has some steep hills. Noise didn't start till 10 minutes into the trip, guess that's how long it takes to wear down a ring? Although you think it would have gotten oil after 10 minutes...
I think my con rod clearance is good
Do these con rod bearings look good?
My engine guy is going to stop by Saturday and see if we can just get away with polishing the bore if it's not out of round and dropping a new piston and rings in. Would kind of suck to have to pull the motor but you gotta do what you gotta do.
No broken rings but the top ring was worn all the way down to the piston surface on the thrust side when pushed into the groove, at that point the piston started contacting the bore. Engine guy said full skirt wear only on one side sounds like no oil was getting to that piston. It kinda matches up with when the issues first started. 40*f out, thick rotella t1 30w oil, Pennsylvania has some steep hills. Noise didn't start till 10 minutes into the trip, guess that's how long it takes to wear down a ring? Although you think it would have gotten oil after 10 minutes...
I think my con rod clearance is good
Do these con rod bearings look good?
My engine guy is going to stop by Saturday and see if we can just get away with polishing the bore if it's not out of round and dropping a new piston and rings in. Would kind of suck to have to pull the motor but you gotta do what you gotta do.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!
Didn't you say you overheated it? #6 is already known to be the hottest piston of the lot. Possibly overheated the piston and collapsed the skirt.
Top ring doesn't look all the way worn down. I would expect more bore damage from that. Looks it may just be stuck in the land with aluminum.. or the land is possibly worn.
Top ring doesn't look all the way worn down. I would expect more bore damage from that. Looks it may just be stuck in the land with aluminum.. or the land is possibly worn.
2000 XJ. 4.6L stroker
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