Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

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NickInTimeFilms
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Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

I've got a tap noise that I think I've tracked to the 6th cylinder exhaust but I'm pretty stumped and not sure where to go from here.
TL;DR Bad tap noise, lots of tests with little turn up, video below.

Background-
I have a 4.6L Icon 944 Pistons with an Erson Cam #RV12H 280/288 deg, .448/.458 lift, 112LCA. Broke it in on 30w and comp cams break in oil and it ran great except for the 24lb/hr injectors running super rich on my Renix. Switched to stock injectors after 100 miles and it ran fine. Changed oil at 300 miles with 30w Rotella T1 and Lucas Break in additive. Took it on a trip (130 miles, varied throttle) out to an off road park and had some fun but didn't push it too hard. Ran great and temps never got over 215*F. Let a friend drive it that night, went up a long, steep road and didn't notice till the top that the temperature started getting pretty high (240*F). Radiator cap might have been failing as steam was coming out. Let it cool and went back with no issues.

Issue Began-
Left on a cold morning (40*F) next day and was gentle to let it warm up while driving. 10 minutes into the trip home before I hit the highway I noticed a loud tapping noise start up, temp was 160*F. Pulled over to take a look and it seemed like valve train and it was loud. Fluids were good, nothing was damaged and I had to make it back home that day so I drove it 130 miles back home going easy on it. Temps rose to around 230*F which was higher than the way up, may have had a little air in the cooling system. Still had plenty of power and ran well, just didn't sound very happy. Haven't driven it since.

Investigation-
It's a very distinct, loud, tap coming from the rear top of the engine from what I can tell. It increases with engine speed and happens regardless of engine temperature. Popped the valve cover and all rockers had oil and nothing was loose or out of place. Popped oil pan and there were no chunks in the pan and nothing looked majorly bad. Rods weren't bouncing around and I didn't see any huge scuffs on the Camshaft from what little I checked.

6th cylinder at the top, 1st cylinder towards the bottom.
Image

Tried easiest stuff first, replaced oil with 10w30 Dino and some Risoline additive to see if lighter weight helped free anything, no luck. Pulled spark plugs, some were light tan, some were blacker (Most likely from running rich the first 100 miles.) Tops of pistons were completely black.

Spark plugs from 6th(left) to 1st(right)
Image

Image

Did a compression test and everything looked good:
Cyl 1: 162psi
Cyl 2: 162psi
Cyl 3: 178psi
Cyl 4: 174psi
Cyl 5: 164psi
Cyl 6: 159psi
Interesting note: When testing cylinder 6 I could hear a tap while cranking the engine over, so maybe compression is a factor in producing the noise?

Let some seafoam sit in the cylinders for half an hour, then ran it and poured half the bottle down the throttle body and let that sit again. On start up it started running at 3k so I let it go for a minute then shut it off. Put the other half of the bottle of seafoam in the oil and drove it around the block but no luck. Put a bottle of Valve Medic oil detergent in and drove it around the block but still no change, looks like i'm not getting out easy. Time to find the noise.

Diagnostic-
Hooked up a spark plug test light to time the tapping sound to the engine speed. Once per blink is half engine speed (Camshaft) and twice per blink is engine speed (Crankshaft.) After watching the video and slowing it down 1/4 speed it sounds like it ticks once per flash, but at 1/8 speed you hear the tick followed closely by a tock. I'm going to assume this is still half engine speed which points us to the Valve Train.

Pulling the valve cover and filming the rockers, it looks like the tap aligns perfectly with the 6th cylinder exhaust rocker as it is being extended by the Camshaft. Some better slow motion video seems to verify this. I tried pushing down on the rocker arms but none of them moved down at all so the lifters are solid. Tried picking up and twisting the pushrods but none of them had any play in them.

Decided to take off 6 cyl intake and exhaust rockers and pushrods, held the lifters up with magnets, disconnected spark plug wire and fuel injector, then started the engine. The loud tapping noise was not there anymore, but once it settle there was a light chatter. Might have been a tool or something rattling so not sure for certain but it sound damn near normal again.

Took off the whole upper valve train to inspect it. None of the pushrods were bent, none of the rockers were cracked or had bad wear, none of the valve springs were cracked or were stuck shut. I figured maybe there was an unruly lifter so I pulled the head to take a look. Pulled all the lifters to inspect them, none of them seemed too bad. Most still had a very clean bottom and a few had a very light surface wear but nothing crazy. Didn't see any dirt or gunk but I replaced the lifters on 5th and 6th cylinder just to be sure.

I scrubbed the pistons clean and looked at the head but nothing stuck out at me. Replaced the intake and exhaust gasket because I had a very small exhaust leak from the ebay header I got. It seems to have warped and bowed out a tad from the heat and you could see the carbon traces on 1 and 6. Tightened it all down with a new Victor Reinz gasket and put the head back on.

Started it up and still have the exact same noise. Bummer. Waited a bit for the new lifters to pump up and cover the rockers with oil but the noise still remained. No play in the rockers still. Took some of the parts to my engine guy and he thought maybe the rocker bridge was bent and the rockers were hitting it because there was a small mark on either side of the bridge. Took it home, straightened it but still no luck. After looking carefully though it doesn't look like the rockers could hit where the marks were because the bearing mount would hit before anything and there were no marks at all between bearing foot and rocker bottom. Even marked the max rock points and ran the engine and the rockers don't go that far.

Tried moving that rocker set and pushrods to the front, and the front to the back but the noise still remained in the back. I am absolutely stumped at this point. What on earth could it possibly be?! It is killing me because I've exhausted every possible thing I could think of so maybe someone on here know's something more on the subject then I.

Youtube Video Here:

Link if that doesn't work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzslg8owJ5s
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by Cheromaniac »

If your Jeep is an automatic, you might want to pull off the bellhousing inspection cover and check if any of the torque converter to flexplate bolts are loose. Since the tapping noise is coming from the rear of the engine, this is a possible cause and it's easily fixable.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by jsawduste »

Dino, the noise went away after holding the lifters to #6 up.

Looking at the spark plugs is it me or do I see the center porcelain on the far left plug (think is #6) damaged ?
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

I'm up for suggestion and I'll try just about anything.

Dino: I crawled under there just for giggles and it's hard to tell but doesn't quite sound like the bell housing area. I popped off the inspection cover and rotated through all the bolts to be sure and all flexplate to torque converter bolts are tight. So that's out. When I was underneath it did sound about as loud as from the top so I'm still unsure exactly where the noise is coming from. I have a crappy auto stethoscope but not finding much from that either.

jsawduste: I took a good look at the spark plug pictures and in the video at 2:48 and didn't notice any damage. I don't recall any damage when looking at them in person either. Good guess though.

After hearing the noise from the bottom end as well, I wonder if maybe it is somewhere down there. I didn't take a really good look when the pan was off, but I didn't really know what to look for either. I tried searching different engine noises online, and EricTheCarGuy had a 4.0L with the same noise, but the owner scrapped it before he could fix it sadly. Here's that video, starts at 26 seconds: https://youtu.be/B9DP7jhX9XU?t=26s

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NickInTimeFilms
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

What are your thoughts on a damaged exhaust valve? One of my dad's friends had a listen and was convinced it was the exhaust valve hitting the head. Any way to check without pulling off the head? I have a valve spring compressor but may just pull it again and have my engine guy look it over.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by Russ Pottenger »

Piston to valve clearance isn't a problem on a 4.0

If you stuck a exhaust valve in a guide and had a piston hit it, there would be a good chance you're cranking compression would reflect that
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

I don't think it was a piston to valve issue Ross, more that either something got impacted between the seat or something just went wrong. I asked him about that being the issue if it still had good compression and he said it could be off by just enough to make noise. Don't know for sure, but I'm running out of things that make contact in the top end. If the valves and springs are good, it would have to be bottom end at this point.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by optmaxx »

Cool video, except for the issues you're having. I probably missed it, but did you do the elimination test with the pushrods and lifters on, while just unplugging the injector or spark plug? That should help to determine if it's the top or bottom end too. I looked at your thread build, and I was going ask if you had to knock off some material off of the small end of the connecting rods for the 944s? Just wondering if that may have something to do with it if you didn't.

I was having some knocking noise on my stroker thinking that it was the valve train too, but later I found out that I used the wrong sized piston rings which caused almost all of the rings to break. Also, even though some pistons were showing high compression, most of them had one broken ring each and one had both rings broken, but they still showed high compression. So, now I think that most of my noise was coming from having broken piston rings. I'm not saying that you used the wrong rings, but if you ever have the engine apart again you should pop out that #6 piston and check it out. Good luck.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

Optmaxx: I did unplug the spark plug and injector on number 6 with valve train in tact and started it but it still made the same exact sound. I did not try it for the other cylinders, but I doubt it would show anything. Might try it anyway just for continuity. Couldn't tell you anything about the connecting rods unless I ask my engine guy, but if it's a small detail then he might not have noticed it.

Interesting find on your broken rings. Were they immediately visible when they were still in the engine? I had the head off, but I didn't look very hard at the rings themselves but the bores still looked very clean so I figured all was good. I'll keep that in mind if I poke around in there again. Thanks for the suggestions!
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by CandyCaneXj »

Are you sure the #6 exhaust retainer or lock is not hitting the valve guide just a hair? Or the spring binding? Try swapping some valve springs around. Also maybe a flat spot on the camshaft you could probably hook up a dial indicator somehow and turn the engine over by hand and compare lift readings to #6. Not sure if the lifters would allow the same readings but you would think if the cam was bad you would notice some sort of reading change.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

CandyCaneXJ: Interesting thought on the valve keeper hitting the guide, but the valve stem seal doesn't have any marks on it. I'll take a closer look at the keepers and spring tomorrow though. I thought about a worn cam lobe but then there should be lots of metal in the oil, along with a very badly worn lifter bottom. The 6th cyl lifter bottoms still looked damn near polished and the cam lobe looked pretty shiny as well. I would think if the lobe was worn enough that the lifters are bouncing around that you should be able to push down on the rockers but they are all very tight with no play. If the lifters are pumped up and under the same pressure then a dial indicator might do quite well. For testing sake, I'll see if I can check the lift of the cam lobes tomorrow.
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by SilverXJ »

You have done a pretty through diagnosis. I would also check preload and make sure it is with in spec. Even though the push rod appears to be tight your preload could be on the lose side. I would also check wear on the valve guide by removing the valve spring pressure and moving the valve to see if there is any significant movement. A valve that is lose in the guide can cause noise and you have pretty much narrowed it down to the exhaust side. I may have missed it, but does the sound change when you pull the spark plug without changing anything else?
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

SilverXJ: How would you go about checking pushrod preload? I'll see if I can loosen the spring tomorrow and look for play in the shaft. I have not tried running it with the valvetrain assembled and the spark plug removed so that will be another test for tomorrow. Thanks for the great suggestions guys. :cheers:
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by SilverXJ »

This gives you a pretty good and easy way to check: http://www.gregsengine.com/lifter-insta ... tment.html

Make sure the cylinder you are checking is at TDC on the compression stroke. You are checking how much the lifter is compressed when the rocker is bolted down.
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NickInTimeFilms
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Re: Engine Ticking Noise driving me crazy!

Post by NickInTimeFilms »

Awesome link, thanks. I'll get back to all of you with the results tomorrow, see if we can't uncover anything.
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