Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

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GASnBRASS
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Stroker Displacement: 4.1 / 250ci
Vehicle Year: 1998
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Vehicle Model: TJ

Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by GASnBRASS »

So I'm gathering all the parts for the mini stroker build in my TJ, and this is what's I've got so far:

Original '98 block and 0630 head - 97K miles on it
4.0 rods
ground 232 crank
new old stock 677cp pistons
mopar 28 cam and lifters (.430 lift)
rollmaster timing set

I plan to have the lifter bores grooved to help get oil to the cam lobes, and install a new dist gear. It appears the cam/dist gear is just splash lubricated, but Hesco has a high volume pump with a separate oil tube to lubricate the cam/dist gears. Spendy, but worth it?

Is it better to replace the valves, or just have a valve job done with the miles on it? Motor ran fine, no oil burning.

The stock valve train parts look to be in good shape and everything was kept organized to their original positions, and I read the stock springs can handle .430 lift. What parts should be replaced regardless of miles: springs, retainers, rockers, pivots, pushrods? No funds for roller rockers though.
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gonridnu
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Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by gonridnu »

If the springs are used and have lots of miles on them toss 'em and replace 'em. Springs cycle fatigue and they are cheap. You can clean and reuse retainers, locks, spring shims, rockers, fulcrums, and pushrods. Do a good visual inspection of each looking for excessive wear.

I have built several mopars with a small hole EDM'd in the lifter face as opposed to grooving the lifter bores. I believe you can buy the lifters already done these days. It's a superior method of providing oil to grooving the lifter bores as it puts the oil right where it needs to be and meters it.

if memory serves me correctly, and it has been a while so maybe someone else can chime in, these engines priority oil the cam and then the mains like a big block mopar and the opposite of big or small Chevy. If that is indeed the case, grooving the lifter bore will likely result in a loss of oil volume and pressure at the mains.

A stock oil pump should be utilized if the engine is going to operate in the factory rpm range and utilizes factory main and rod bearing clearances. If you ave excessive bearing clearance you will want to opt for a High volume pump.
GASnBRASS
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 40
Joined: June 23rd, 2017, 7:01 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.1 / 250ci
Vehicle Year: 1998
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: TJ

Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by GASnBRASS »

I'm not aware of any hydraulic lifters that have the EDM holes in them, I think that's just on solid lifters. The only added oiling methods I know of with hydraulics are the lifter bore grooving or the Crower cam saver lifters with the flats machined in the sides of the lifter.

I just got the bearings today, so I'll have to mic the main and rod housing bores, crank journals, and the bearings to see what clearances I have.
Russ Pottenger
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Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by Russ Pottenger »

The EDM holes are on the solid flat tappets.

I know you're not running Comp cam, but that's one of the reasons why I use them because they offer an in-house Nitriding option.

Another option is if you're using a stock rod you could notch your rod bearing adjacent to the oil squirter groove in the factory rod. That would help to sling more oil on your camshaft and lifters.
GASnBRASS
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 40
Joined: June 23rd, 2017, 7:01 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.1 / 250ci
Vehicle Year: 1998
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: TJ

Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by GASnBRASS »

The clevite rod bearings didn't have the hole at the split, so I got a set of king bearings and they have the cutout for the oil squirt hole. I'm just looking to add more oil lubrication to the lobes, and specifically the dizzy drive gear, but I'm not sure if the lifter grooves or flats would require a HV pump.
Russ Pottenger
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Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by Russ Pottenger »

GASnBRASS wrote:The clevite rod bearings didn't have the hole at the split, so I got a set of king bearings and they have the cutout for the oil squirt hole. I'm just looking to add more oil lubrication to the lobes, and specifically the dizzy drive gear, but I'm not sure if the lifter grooves or flats would require a HV pump.
You got your rod bearing problem solved by buying a set of king bearings, but there's nothing to keep you from putting a groove in any bearing.

I'd think running the notched rod bearing with the correct valve spring properly set up you should be fine.
GASnBRASS
I think I'll order a "tab"
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Posts: 40
Joined: June 23rd, 2017, 7:01 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.1 / 250ci
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Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by GASnBRASS »

So, odd idea here, my TJ is completely torn down into a million pieces. I'm doing a new frame swap, fixed the rust in the floors, body work, transmission modifications, new steering and driveline work, new fenders, etc. Since I'm rebuilding my engine into a mini stroker with some unknowns, and the rest of the jeep is torn apart as well, would it be smart to reinstall the original cam and lifters (I kept track of the lifter's original locations) and get the motor running for a couple minutes without the front body work on, just to make sure I don't have any fuel or electrical issues, then remove the head and front timing cover to swap in the new cam and lifters and do a new cam break-in? I'd hate to wipe out a cam trying to diagnose a fuel or computer problem and cranking it over and over.
Russ Pottenger
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Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by Russ Pottenger »

I'm assuming the camshaft that has previously run and broken in is the Mopar cam that you wish to run?

If so and if it visually passes inspection and the lifters were kept in its proper order, you should be good to go.
I'd still put Molly lube on the lobes and the bottom of the lifters to be safe, but once the camshaft is properly broken in it has passed it's most critical stage from going flat.

Sounds like you have a fun project.

Post up some pictures when you're done.
GASnBRASS
I think I'll order a "tab"
I think I'll order a "tab"
Posts: 40
Joined: June 23rd, 2017, 7:01 pm
Stroker Displacement: 4.1 / 250ci
Vehicle Year: 1998
Vehicle Make: Jeep
Vehicle Model: TJ

Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by GASnBRASS »

The old cam is the original stock 4.0 cam and everything has been sitting for 3 years while I rebuilt the jeep. I'd just be running it for a minute to make sure the engine starts ok, can get to rpm, good oil pressure, no fuel problems, and no issues with the transmission. Then pull the head, install new cam and lifters, correct length pushrods, new MLS mopar head gasket and head bolts, and do a cam break in.
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Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by WJrazz »

I had an old Audi that sat for a couple of years without being started.
I changed the oil and filter, pulled the plugs, squirted a few drops of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder, then turned it over with the starter for about 30 seconds on a fresh battery, gnition disconnected, no load, until I could smell gas coming out of the plug ports.
Put fresh plugs in, hooked everything up and cranked it up. It took several tries to start and ran pretty ragged for a couple of minutes, then everything smoothed out to normal.
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gonridnu
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Re: Oil pump and valvetrain questions.

Post by gonridnu »

I'm not aware of any hydraulic lifters that have the EDM holes in them, I think that's just on solid lifters. The only added oiling methods I know of with hydraulics are the lifter bore grooving or the Crower cam saver lifters with the flats machined in the sides of the lifter.
This is correct. I so very rarely deal with hydraulic lifter engines that i forgot that is what we are dealing with here.

Regardless, you cannot use any of the methods you listed without bushing the lifter bores in the block and then drilling a small hole in the lifter bore bushing, and then utilizing either of the methods you listed. The block priority oils the mains which is to say the oil goes through the lifter galley first and then to the mains. The pressure to the mains counts on the fact that there is a very small clearance between lifter and bore which controls the amount of oil that is released. After that the oil travels to the main galley.

If you open up the effective lifter bore tolerance by putting a flat on one side of the lifter, or grooving the lifter bore, you will pump the oil that was destined for your crankshaft out the lifter bores and into the pan before it gets to your crankshaft. The end result is you will smoke the crank within a matter of minutes.

There are a lot of engines that do not utilize priority main oiling. Ours is one.
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