KB pistons

Performance mods and Advanced Stroker discussion.
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oletshot
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Re: KB pistons

Post by oletshot »

If you mean I misunderstood the point of your post, then let me explain what I took your post to mean.

1. You want people to stop building budget strokers that use 4.2 rods and off the self aftermarket 4.0 pistons and start building high dollar strokers that use custom pistons and 4.0L or eagle rods. The use of these rods and pistons would allow the engine to have zero deck height pistons at TDC and an optimum quench. If we all built this stroker, you wouldn't have to hear about ping anymore.

2. The Dino computer dyno comment I didn't understand, and still don't. The only reference in this thread to Dino is about piston dish cc's. I don't see anything about a computer dyno.

3.You are tired of reading about people having a custom roller cam cast and ground. The roller cam issue I didn't even comment on, but now I will. To me the cam is very similar to the Diamond pistons. Money spent to insure the life of your engine. You say with your Diamonds and Eagles, you can rest assured your stroker will live a long life, but it seems a lot of strokers are dying from cam lobe failures. Maybe to insure the life of your stroker. you should have thrown some money into a roller cam. With trend to remove ZDDP from our oil, a roller cam doesn't sound that crazy, does it?

4. You mentioned that if we don't have the money to spend on these pistons, we should put in a SBC. Why introduce a more expensive solution to a money problem?

Did I understand? I think I did.

Now onto the KB pistons. I believe everyone here hopes that the mass produced cast or hypereutectic pistons cost less than custom machined pistons. It's the whole point. Now what KB makes may be a whole other story, I can't see into the future.
Seems like a lot of extra work for something that is already avaliable.
A spell check would not be a bad Idea ether.
Really, I need a spell check? Pot calling the kettle black. In case you still don't see it, it's "available" and "either". It's great when someone tells me to learn to spell and makes a spelling error in that very sentence. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I can think past my nose, maybe you need to learn how to write how you feel. If you didn't mean anything negative, you could have just said something like this.

"Another option would be Diamond pistons. They are custom machined pistons but only cost $450 a set. This is more $$$ than off-the-self cast pistons but it allows you to use your 4.0 rods to offset some of the cost. It also allows you to set the quench and piston dish to optimum, there by eliminating ping from the beginning. Think of the time and money saved not having to chase your own tail trying to eliminate ping."

A post like this would have been well recieved. but instead we got "DUH!!!" and " :smack: " and "I've about had it". I may have missed your point but I didn't miss the tone of your post.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by oletshot »

By the way, unless your cam has your valves closed at the start of the compression stroke, your cam is bleeding off compression also. Ignoring DCR (it's the compression ratio that matters most) is as bad as ignoring quench IMO. For the budget builder there isn't much choice for getting quench right (your post presented correctly would have gone a long way to disprove this though). The easiest solution is to lower DCR, or have problems with ping later. You can call it a band aid or you can call it a different design. My build is a 4.5 junkyard stroker. It'll have the same quench as stock (not near perfect, but good enough for Jeep and me) and a SCR and DCR slightly higher than stock. With my cam, I'm hoping to gain 30-40 HP and run on 87 -89 octane. I've designed that way. If it doesn't turn out that way, then I'll put in a band aid cam after trying the other anti-ping band aids. The total cost for the engine build looks like it will be the same as the cost of your pistons alone. How long it runs on the backyard rebuild remains to be seen. Sorry about blowing my stack but as I said when I was 10, you started it. :cheers:
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Re: KB pistons

Post by gradon »

Sorry for not letting this KB thread smolder until we actually hear the news. I've been crunching some numbers the past few days so was looking at the piston options. One of my bros works at advanced auto and was giving me the prices(before his 20% disc.) on the 677cp, the 802cp, the 825cp, and the various reg/prem standard/metric rings. I would prefer to use the 802cp(15.1cc dish), as it's a hyperteutic, but looks like I'll need the larger 17.5cc dish of the 677cp should I go the 4.2 rod route. Anyhow it looks like I'll be getting all the other parts together and the head finished before I'm forced to choose piston/rod route, but at least I have my options narrowed down.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by 1bolt »

jsawduste wrote: Honestly I do not want to come off as a know it all. But between this piston issue, a roller cam and Dino`s computer dyno. I`ve about had it with this site as I did with Yahoo.
Not sure what the Roller cam or Dino's enjoyment of engine simulation software have to do with the forum... I'm really not sure why you would be fed up with a site that's a month old... Does it really bother you that people have their own idea on how to build?

Spelling flames are just gay... At best you look petty and small not to mention extremely uncreative... At worst you misspell a couple words in the same damn post :smack: :doh:

Finally I think anyone who buys 450 dollar cast pistons when they could have spent a small amount more and gotten fully custom spec forgings has no business lecturing people about how to build "the right way". My "right way" involves forged pistons that will shrug off abuse that would shatter your overpriced castings.

Really if you're going to strut around being self satisfied I wouldn't use paying twice as much for cast pistons just to get a specific pin height as my crowning achievement.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by jsawduste »

Diamonds are forged not cast.

ZDDP has been an issue since SG/SH when the oil companies stared reducing levels.

Diesel CI, while still reduced (by diesel standards) is much more fortified then SJ.

Did you know that the Comp Cam and Crane additives are repackaged GM EOS. Which is still available under the AC-Del co name ?

The I6 has a prov-en know rpm design. With proper lubrication a stroker will last as long as a stocker. The benefit of the roller is to induce a more severe cam dynamics. Something this engine doesn't need based on it`s design parameters and limitations.
93 4.0 block
12 weight 4.2 crank
.080 Diamond pistons
Eagle rods
balanced
274/480 Cam
Mopar rollers with Engel springs
.043 Quench @ 9.48 Compression
Ported head
01 intake with 64 mm TB
Edlebrock header
Misc other stuff

Don`t need a Hemi.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by oletshot »

I went and checked out some of the DIamond pistons at Hesco. None of them come with pins, so add another $5-7 per hole just for pins, then take them to a machine shop to have them fitted for ??? a hole. Do the pistons directly from Diamond for $75 a hole come with pins or is that another cost?

For my own education, could someone please tell me what I misspelled in the post that I got flamed for. I went quickly through it and could only find "klicking". Maybe I'm missing something. :huh:

AS you stated, issues started with SG/SH and they are lowering the ZDDP in the diesel formula also. So what does this show, the trend to lower ZDDP across the board. Yes, you can still get a few additives to add it back , but for how long? Maybe 10 years, maybe 2, no one knows. It depends on how many people buy it and if the are allowed to continue selling it. Seems to me that if it's being forced out of the formula for emissions reasons and we keep putting it back in with additives, someone may figure that out and start cutting it out of the additives. Just speculation at this point.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by 1bolt »

jsawduste wrote:Diamonds are forged not cast.
Now thats news to me, that's a good price then and I take back all my comments. I could have sworn I'd read about the Diamond pistons and heard that they had some ring land issues and inconsistent quality, now that I think about it that was Venolia's from Accurate Power and not Diamond's from HESCO.

In that case let me comment on this remark you made:
jsawduste wrote:Do you really think that KB is going to come in cheaper or better ?
Yeah, maybe. If HESCO isn't the sole supplier of the new KB's they may very well be shooting for a price point closer to cast, remember cast pistons by their own words cost more for limited production runs so they always start with forged. This at least IMPLIES that they aren't trying to market a golden piston.

I certainly hope they have at least done enough research to know that HESCO is offering the Diamonds already, couple that with the fact that HESCO is notorious for price gouging ESPECIALLY when they are the only source of something.
jsawduste wrote:Diesel CI, while still reduced (by diesel standards) is much more fortified then SJ.
That's a little out of date now. Many Diesel Oils for the last year are just about in the same boat as SM motor oils (ie. 600 to 800 ppm Zinc and Phos). There are a couple good non-diesel formulations at the moment, Mobil 1 High Mileage which is an SL because of 1200 and 1100 Zn and P is probably the best option, commonly available on shelves. You can find fresher information on BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com including the few diesel weights that still are good and Virgin oil analysis on other better weights for the 4.0 (the AMC I6's all seem to like 5/40 and 10/40 for lowest measured wear metals, in published UOA's (used oil analysis)
jsawduste wrote:The I6 has a prov-en know rpm design. With proper lubrication a stroker will last as long as a stocker. The benefit of the roller is to induce a more severe cam dynamics. Something this engine doesn't need based on it`s design parameters and limitations.
This seems so oversimplified as to barely merit commenting. You could write the exact same thing regarding Stroking the 4.0. Lets try and see if it illustrates whats wrong with your generalization: Lengthening the stroke of the 4.0 induces more severe crankshaft dynamics. Something this engine doesn't need based on it`s design parameters and limitations....

Wow... Sage wisdom... Lets go one step further:
Modifying the 4.0 in any way from factory stock induces more severe performance dynamics. Something this engine doesn't need based on it`s design parameters and limitations...

Wow that's the spirit.... By even slightly modifying the 4.0 we are introducing all manner of potentially unsafe usage to the detriment of reliability, longevity, emissions, fuel economy, all intended "design parameters" of a bone stock factory engine.

Now I know for sure you aren't seriously intending to advocate any of those, but your comment about roller cams amounts to the exact same thing, I only took it to the extreme.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by 1bolt »

oletshot wrote:Seems to me that if it's being forced out of the formula for emissions reasons and we keep putting it back in with additives, someone may figure that out and start cutting it out of the additives. Just speculation at this point.
Already happened, quietly and with a thoroughness only black helicopter EPA agents can manage :? all the ZDDP containing oil supplements have either been taken off the shelves (STP red, SLOB, and two other CD-1 oil treaments) or are forumlated to contain very little ZDDP (STP blue)
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Looking for a 232 crankshaft see my want ad: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=1292
http://www.jeepstrokers.com 94 XJ Stroked lifted locked. 89 MJ restored Work truck, 88 YJ going on third build up and second Stroker.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by 1bolt »

Note I split out the budding roller cam discussion into it's own thread
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Simon
Looking for a 232 crankshaft see my want ad: http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=1292
http://www.jeepstrokers.com 94 XJ Stroked lifted locked. 89 MJ restored Work truck, 88 YJ going on third build up and second Stroker.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by gradon »

So I was searching ebay for Mopar parts and came across these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KEITH-BL ... 0216078976 If these had a 1.38" compression height instead of 1.465", they'd be perfect. Bore it .035" over and with the .043 HG and it'd be right around 9.5:1.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by Shark »

anyone else get this email today?
From: "Jerry Ward" <[email protected]> Add Mobile Alert
To: [email protected]
Subject: Hi We are going to build the pistons starting next week, they will be posted on our web site.
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:40:15 -0700
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Re: KB pistons

Post by gradon »

I am glad I've held out this long for pistons.
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Re: KB pistons

Post by Shark »

i wonder what the final specs will be. how much will they be? are they in fact going to be forged? dish? for use with 4.0 pistons? will they come with rings? im hoping this is going to be the most economical way to build a stroker.
'91 MJ 4.0 ax15 Resto-mod street truck project, stroker candidate
'93 XJ 2door 4.0 aw4 np231 7" lift 33's
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Re: KB pistons

Post by seanyb505 »

Something tells me a brand new product, with overall limited demand will be super cheap. :D Id like to get a set, but I already paid 130 for 4.2 rods and 190 for pistons. I doubt I will be able to get a set and have my 4.0 rods reconditioned for $320 :(
Now I can be like all those other awesome people with more than one Jeep in their sig, but now I have to say one of them is sold:(
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Re: KB pistons

Post by Flash »

So i when on there sight last night to see if there was any more info........search all around but couldn't find any mention of then yet.

got exited when i found a Chry Stroker Piston..........until i realised it was for a 360 piston for a 4.00" stroke crank :doh:


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