Roller Cam and Lifters

[dwg86]

For me it seemed odd that a person could make a cam blank but couldn't grind a cam. I would've considered a $400-600 roller cam w/lifters but nothing like the $1200-1400 that it was after the grind. There has got to be a person out there who can do this for a lot less if only he knew of the demand and parameters.

If someone can show the demand for the roller cam at a reasonable price, it might get done. The roller lifters are already available. They just need a locking bar designed.

[Delk]

Has anyone tried to contact the guy from the CNC link?


08-10-2007, 02:09 PM
NC Cams Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,063


Yes, lift curves can provide a lot of insight into how a cam will perform. However, you'll need much more than the lift curve to see it what you plan to do is even viable. Things like lift curve, spring loads and rates, valve component weights, valve train design, RPM and performance goals are just a few of the things that need to be considered.

We offer these sort of consulting services as part of an engineering service or as part of a service/cam design/manufacturing package. As you might expect, we do not do these things for free as valvetrain engineering is our profession.

Let me caution you against "machining" a cam to change the lift. There is not a milling machine or lathe that I know of that can/will reshape a cam profile in a fashion suitable to both provide smooth, wear free motion. The ONLY proper way to reshape a cam lobe is by grinding and cam grinders are not something that even professional automotive machine shops posess.

Moreover, it may be possible to machine the cam cores out of billet but, most cam makers do not give out the exact specs on how to machine and/or heat treat their cam materials - it involves trade secrets which are hard to learn and quite valuable. We can't and won't explain how to make cams on message boards.

We design, grind or regrind cams all the time for our clients. Considering that the grinder cost us $80,000 and the machine that makes our masters another $60,000 or so, plus we have over 25 years experience in grinding cams for street, race and marine applications, I'd like to think that we are entitled to charge a fair price for cam grinding services. These vary depending on the engine and difficulty but prices typlically range from $250 to $500 per cam PLUS a tooling charge for the profile master or masters.

I dare say that we could professionally grind and do so correctly for a cost much less than what it would take you to learn how to do so, all things considered. Sadly, the cost to make a one off cam is not cheap. The cost to make one wrong or out of the wrong material could ultimately destroy the whole engine.

Finally, "free" machining of parts that require unique finishing and/or heat treating processes (camshafts are just such animals) is ultimately worth what you pay to have it done.

Take my advice: save your money, buy some good cores and have a pro grind your cams.

Chances are, the experience and expertise of a pro cam grinder (us or any of our competitors) will save you far more than what you plan/expect to save by doing it yourself - DIY cam grinding is something that I STRONGLY feel is a fool's errand.

[John]

Unaware of anyone contacting this shop regarding roller cam grind profile design for the I6, and it is actually the next step, identifying working profiles. I wonder how many of potential users would agree on one camshaft grind meeting their needs.
John

[Flash]

Unaware of anyone contacting this shop regarding roller cam grind profile design for the I6, and it is actually the next step, identifying working profiles. I wonder how many of potential users would agree on one camshaft grind meeting their needs.
John

Since a Roller cam could pervide more torque and hp then a stock cam with simmiler spec, you would have more wanting the same cam........Hmmmm..................

I just re-read the red part of Delk's post......."PLUS a tooling charge for the profile master or masters." In other word, if you had some twin cam eng where both cams were differant(one had a spline or gear at the end of it for a dist and the other didn't) you would need to pay for 2 masters .. or say one wanted a GM dist gear cut into theres, and one with fuel pump lobe, one with a cam plate style front section and one with the cam pin desine.....this would cost for the tooling Of each cam.
if every one use the same blank then there would only be a one time tooling charge.

Thats how i see it...........Maybe i'm missing something here.

Flash

[gradon]

A one time tooling charge that could be shared should a group want the same profile?

[Flash]

A one time tooling charge that could be shared should a group want the same profile?

the one time tooling charge would be for the cam blank designing, logging of info and cutting of the first cam.

These are all speculating numbers, that i have just pulled out of the air for this example.Say the cam blank processes cost was $1,500 and each cam was$ 600, that would equate to $500 a piece, for the shared cost of the blank,(1,500) then 600 to make it into a roller cam.........$1,100 each if there was 3 people...................
That ASSumes that after the first cam is made that the 600 included a blank made and a profile ground on it..............It could just as well be 1500+600 For each cam made.

Maybe, like John said above, if we could get several people to buy one roller cam blank, several with the same profile on all of them, it could be less expensive............................................................

Flash

[John]

I tried to create a poll and was unable to do so, lets try it here as a straw poll with comments.

If I could purchase a roller cam set for my I6 it would be purchased for:
Improved street performance
Strip
mud/sand drags
Dunes
Crawling
trail
Rpm
Forced induction

Furnish additional categories, If there is interest, we might get a formal poll going. One person with deep pockets can do this or if there is enough common ground interest, it could be done at a better price. It will still cost more than catalog cams.
John

[Muad'Dib]

I tried to create a poll and was unable to do so, lets try it here as a straw poll with comments.

If I could purchase a roller cam set for my I6 it would be purchased for:
Improved street performance
Strip
mud/sand drags
Dunes
Crawling
trail
Rpm
Forced induction

Furnish additional categories, If there is interest, we might get a formal poll going. One person with deep pockets can do this or if there is enough common ground interest, it could be done at a better price. It will still cost more than catalog cams.
John

Please tell me what steps you took to create a poll, and what happened when you tried to do so.
Thanks

[Flash]

I tried to create a poll and was unable to do so, lets try it here as a straw poll with comments.

If I could purchase a roller cam set for my I6 it would be purchased for:
Improved street performance
Strip
mud/sand drags
Dunes
Crawling
trail
Rpm
Forced induction

Furnish additional categories, If there is interest, we might get a formal poll going. One person with deep pockets can do this or if there is enough common ground interest, it could be done at a better price. It will still cost more than catalog cams.
John

Since it's not a actual pull i got Greedy, and picked 2


Improved street performance

Crawling

Flash

[dwg86]

Maybe this company can make a roller cam( http://www.engpwr.com/ABOUT/index.htm ). I can call them next week to try to get some info on making a roller cam. This is the company that supplys the AMERICAN MADE CAM CORES for Reed cams. I spoke with Reed yesterday about thier amc/jeep cams. They said they haven't had any problems with thier cams flattening lobes.

[John]

Please tell me what steps you took to create a poll, and what happened when you tried to do so.
Thanks

Read this in faq,

How do I create a poll?
When posting a new topic or editing the first post of a topic, click the “Poll creation” tab below the main posting form; if you cannot see this, you do not have appropriate permissions to create polls. Enter a title and at least two options in the appropriate fields, making sure each option is on a separate line in the textarea. You can also set the number of options users may select during voting under “Options per user”, a time limit in days for the poll (0 for infinite duration) and lastly the option to allow users to amend their votes.

Opened Stroker & performance tech, new topic, which opened to post but did not see Poll creation tab. Considered I wasn't authorized and took plan B "straw poll"
John

[Muad'Dib]

Please tell me what steps you took to create a poll, and what happened when you tried to do so.
Thanks

Read this in faq,

How do I create a poll?
When posting a new topic or editing the first post of a topic, click the “Poll creation” tab below the main posting form; if you cannot see this, you do not have appropriate permissions to create polls. Enter a title and at least two options in the appropriate fields, making sure each option is on a separate line in the textarea. You can also set the number of options users may select during voting under “Options per user”, a time limit in days for the poll (0 for infinite duration) and lastly the option to allow users to amend their votes.

Opened Stroker & performance tech, new topic, which opened to post but did not see Poll creation tab. Considered I wasn't authorized and took plan B "straw poll"
John

I changed the permissions to allow registered users to create polls in a few of the forums, including this one. Please do try again, and thanks for the help.

[John]

Thanks Muad'Dib, that got it just fine. The poll is up, let's find if there is enough common ground in any area to pursue quantity pricing.
John

[1bolt]

I still think the race shop or custom cam maker approach is all wrong,

If it can be CNC'ed (if there's no techincal reason why a tool steel cam can't be created on a CNC lathe) then there's no "tooling" or "master" cost premium, CNC machines cost a lot of money yes but they also have to earn their keep, Litterally any minute of the day when they are idle is money lost to the Machine shop. There's no "tool up" they are ready to run with a hunk of appropriately shaped metal and a CAD drawing.

The CNC process has the potential to be more precise than any custom cam grinder will ever get close to.

"designing" a roller can wouldn't be to difficult to anyone with 3d design experience as long as a good finished grind profile is known. The "grind" can then be changed or modified at will there's no special ANYTHING no custom pedigreed race shop or years of voodoo black magic experience.

The length (measured from a stocker) the locations of lobes along the long axis, the widths and diameters of the journals and the cross sectional shape of the cam lobes that are desired. Model this in 3d and save as a .DWG or whatever standard CAD file that the CNC shop needs.

I bet I could model a good street profile roller cam if someone provided exact measurements of the above along with a good "theoretical" lobe shape for a "generic" grind.

A generic grind should be slightly more aggressive than the most agressive currently available hydraulic cam, for street use, with no special retard for low torque. Springs, and non-interference valve lift should also be considered (no exotic springs and no valve contact with the top of the piston at zero deck).

We could then specifiy more or less valve overlap, steeper more agressive ramps and retard for more low end torque at the expensive of higher end power. Tweaking these would take some moderate work with the already established 3d model, it can then be sent of to the Shop and be cut out.

The only problem is I don't run a CNC machine so there are certainly possible pitfalls or reasons why it might be more difficult than I envision. The Helix cut distributor gear might require something special.

[Flash]

I sure which that we had some one that was well versed with the making of a roller cam and could tell us just were in the woods that darn bear shit.

I have asked this before, but what material is The factory Roller cams made of?????.......I just don't see then being built out of some hi dollar billet blanks........as they are not a full race ang that need a full race cam either.



Flash