What to do with...

[Muad'Dib]

The more i get closer to doing a build, the more i start to realise that i dont know squat.

Ive never honestly buit an engine before... let alone taken parts to a machine shop for work.

I just bought a block (was told its from a 90... but the block casting # is from a 91-95) and now im trying to figure out what to have done.

First things first... im assuming you need to make sure that the parts you have are good and can be built upon.

So thats where my questions come from. What do i ask a machinest to do? It would be a nice addition to the FAQ especially for ultra noobs like me to have a list of what to have a machinest do to certain parts you start to collect.

For example:

Crankshaft:

When you first get your stroker crankshaft from a 258, you should first check to make sure its something that you even want to use. Take it to your favorite machine shop and have them... (this is where i need help)

Once you have the information above, then here are some possible things you can do:

(again this is where i need help so im going to wing it)

• 1.) Get the crank ground down to make it whatever
  2.) Get the crank cleaned
  3.) Get the crank treated with xyz

#3 is optional .. here are the reasons why or why not to do it:

(More information goes here)

Rods:

(again this is where i need help so im going to wing it)

When you decide which rods your going to use (258, 242, or eagle) you should consider doing the following:

blah blah blah blah

Engine Block:

Take your block of choice into the machine shop and have to following done:

blah blah blah

Cylinder Head:

more blah

I hope the above makes since! Basically i want each section to follow the guidlines of what i have already for the crankshaft process.

This should help out alot, and i dont think it would be to hard for a experienced builder like some of you are, to do.

[PolloLoco]

I don't know much either but I rented this video:
http://smartflix.com/store/video/504/In ... e-Building
Saw some good reviews and references on Google. I have five more months here in Iraq to learn, this is my first time inside an engine too. If you do rent from there the coupon code "MODERNWOOD" will get you $2 off.

[RAPTORFAN85]

off the top of my head,


Block:
1. hot tank or oven bake. (cleaning)
2. shot blast.
3. magnaflux. (check for cracks)
4. line hone the main bearing bores if needed. ( I would recomened this for bearing clearance)
5. bore and hone to desired size. (I.E. over .030)
6. check deck for flatness if not milling, if milling tell them how much. (I.E. have .030 decked off.)

Crank:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty.
2. grind mains and rods to desired size, or offset grind if desired.
2a. Chamfer oil holes if desired. (better oiling)
3. spin balance. (optional)

rods:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty.
2. shot peen if desired. (for strength)
3. check for straightness.
4. install rod bolts if desired.
5. resize bearing journals.
6. weigth balance.
7. install pistons.

Head:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty and shot blast.
2. magnaflux head. (check for cracks)
3. valve job.
3A. Install new seats if needed.
4. check for flatness.
5. mill head if desired. (I.E. mill .010 off)
6. assemble with new springs, retainers, and keepers.

[Muad'Dib]

Thats GREAT!!

Now im sure others may have different opinions about this (and maybe even more information to add) .. but what are the advantages / reasoning behind doing each of those things?

For example...

Whats the difference between a Hot tank and Oven bake? Is this just a "pick one" or does it depend on what the machinist has?

I guess what im asking if we could eloborate a bit more. So then when someone looks / reads about it they can understand why they should do certain things. Like one big question i already have is why would i resize my rods bearing journals....

[Mgardiner1]

When i dropped off my engine components to the machinist, i included a sheet of paper that had the following typed on it

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Building a 4.7L jeep stroker engine (inline 6 cyl)
--==I will purchase all required engine bearings and install/fit the camshaft bearings==--

Parts included:
Jeep/AMC 4.0L (242ci) Engine block
Jeep/AMC 4.2L (258ci) Crankshaft
Jeep /AMC 4.2L (258ci) Connecting Rods
Speed Pro Hypereutectic Pistons (3.935 bore) .060 overbore
Speed Pro piston rings
ARP connecting rod bolts
New main cap bolts

Jeep 4.0L Cylinder head (w/ amature porting job)
Original valves/springs/retainers
Mopar magnum valve springs
Mopar magnum retainers (8 degree)
Mopar 8 degree keepers (single round groove valve stem)
New valve stem seals
1 Mopar hydraulic flat tappet lifter assembly

Need following work performed
Boil/Clean all parts
Bore/hone cylinders for new pistons (block is currently standard)
Shave .030-.035” from engine block deck (trying to achieve “.000 deck height)
Grind and polish crankshaft to closest undersize to clean up crank
Press out old piston pins
Install new pistons
Magna-flux ALL PARTS
Weight match piston and rod assemblies
Spin balance crank assembly
Check cylinder head for straightness and surface only if required
Inspect any damaged valve seats from porting (please call before replacing)
Grind triple angle on valve seats
Regrind original valves
Install valve stem seals, valves, included springs, retainers, and keepers

Specs as advertised:
Bore: 3.935
Stroke: 3.895
Rods: 5.875
Deck height: 9.450 - 9.456
Piston comp. Height: 1.592

Please keep in mind I’m looking for any price break that can be provided if paying with cash"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[RAPTORFAN85]

updated


Block:
1. hot tank or oven bake. (cleaning)
2. shot blast.
3. magnaflux. (check for cracks)
4. line hone the main bearing bores if needed. ( I would recommend this for bearing clearance)
5. bore and hone to desired size. (I.E. over .030)
6. check deck for flatness if not milling, if milling tell them how much. (I.E. have .030 decked off.)
7. Install cam bearings.

additional info:
Hot tanking the block is a better option for cleaning. Not all shops have a hot tank but most have a large oven they "cook" the parts in to burn off any grease, paint, oils, etc...
The shot blasting is to finish cleaning and literally blast away any remaining debris.
Magnafluxing the block is a good idea if the block is not familiar to you, also any engine that is suspect to have cracks should be mag'ed.
Line honing the main bearing bores will ensure that all the bearing journals line up and have adequate bearing clearance. Without adequate clearance the bearings could be tight and burn up. Not everyone thinks this is necessary but is good insurance.
The cam bearings are press fit and need to be installed in a certain order by size (smallest in the rear, largest in the front)

Crank:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty.
2. grind mains and rods to desired size, or offset grind if desired.
2a. Chamfer oil holes if desired. (better oiling)
3. spin balance. (optional)

additional info:
chamfering the oil holes isn't necessary but will allow better oil flow and volume threw the holes.
Balancing is also not necessary but recommended. The cranks come some what balanced from the factory but can be made closer.

rods:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty.
2. shot peen if desired. (for strength)
3. check for straightness.
4. install rod bolts if desired.
5. resize bearing journals.
6. weight balance.
7. install pistons.

additional info:
Shot peening is not necessary but recommended. It will strengthen the rods by removing any stress in the metal, essentially returning it to an almost new state.
ARP rod bolts are recommended insurance for a stroker. They are a press fit and should be installed with proper tools by a machinist.
Resizing the bearing journals should be done after rod bolts are installed, the pressing of the bolts can distort the metal making the bearings tight and burning them up. It's a good idea to have them checked even if you don't install new bolts.
All the rods should be weight matched. Also have the pistons weight matched to the rods to try and get the rod/piston assemblies all as close as possible to help with internal balancing.
Stock jeep pistons are press fit. If done incorrectly You can break a piston or warp the rod.

Head:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty and shot blast.
2. magnaflux head. (check for cracks)
3. port and polish. (optional performance upgrade)
4. valve job.
4A. Install new seats if needed.
5. check for flatness.
6. mill head if desired. (I.E. mill .010 off)
7. assemble with new springs, retainers, and keepers.

additional info:
I would mag any head that is not new. It's not worth it to have money put into a head if it's cracked and only have problems down the road. Cheap insurance.
Porting and polishing will give good gains to a stroker. To have a pro do it will be big money but you will get the best possible job. It can be don by a DIY'er but if you screw up your head you can kill the power rather then help, thus making your head a boat anchor.
Most heads will benefit from a new valve job. Three angle jobs seem to be the new norm. I have seen five angle jobs but think that it may be overkill for a jeep. A new valve job is almost a must after a port and polish, especially if done at home. Also the three angle job will increase the flow of the head.
Assembling the head requires special tools like a spring compressor. if you don't have the right tools have the machinist do it. Usually only a small assembly fee around $50

[Muad'Dib]

Thats fantastic information!! Exactly what i am looking for.

Personal question ... you talk about balancing individual parts (like the rods w pistons and the crank). Do those individual balances need to be done, or is that what is done when you give the machinist all the parts and have him/her balance the assembly? My understanding is that they are pretty much the same.. but i could be wrong!

Another request: pushing my luck!!! You mentioned a cost near the end for head assembly. I know costs vary from machinist to machinist .. but can we also have a "rough" figure for each process?

Example:

Hot tank block (Average Cost: $50.00) i have no clue how much it really is

Thanks for all your guys help!!! This is a big addition to our site in my opinion!

[SilverXJ]

Personal question ... you talk about balancing individual parts (like the rods w pistons and the crank). Do those individual balances need to be done, or is that what is done when you give the machinist all the parts and have him/her balance the assembly? My understanding is that they are pretty much the same.. but i could be wrong!

Balancing the individual parts should be part of the complete balancing job.

Another request: pushing my luck!!! You mentioned a cost near the end for head assembly. I know costs vary from machinist to machinist .. but can we also have a "rough" figure for each process?

My costs:
Deck to .045": $75
Bore & hone: $114
Install cam bearings: $20
balance rotating assembly: $150
clean : $48
Install piston onto rods $24
Install ARP rod bolts + resize rods $ 78
Assemble and blue print short block $ 200
Groove lifter bores $80

[IH 392]

ASE Master Certified engine machinist RANTING here.

As far as I'm concerned you can take your "Bake and Blast" and pack it where the sun DON'T SHINE!!! any machined surface will need to be resurfaced! that's just your $$$ in their pockets! The shop I use to work for would pull crap like that (they didn't bake and blast and still don as far as I know?) and it PISSED me off to NO END!!!!!
AND that CRAP! gets in to EVERY nook and cranny and you NEVER get it all out! BS!

You should have your block, head, crank and rods "maged" as said "it's cheap insurance"

If the oil holes on a crank aren't chamfered the machinist didn't finish the job!, ALL! cranks got chamfered where I worked period!

Balancing is not a bad idea, it a very good one, a FULL balance job will include ALL components of the reciprocating assembly (crank rods pistons dampener flywheel and pressure plate)

I see alot of guys on here replacing fasteners (bolts) that they probably don't need to, they should be inspected closely! for stretching or if they are "torque to yield", these engines don't use torque to yield bolts, I haven't looked into the very latest of them, if they did the gasket sets would come with them! the vast majority of these engines are really nothing more than a "stock type" rebuild, fancy high $$ fasteners aren't needed. (rod bolts, the rod will break before a stock bolt will!)

Any real machine shop in this day and age will put a 3 angle valve job on ANY head, the cutters used today do ALL three angles at the same time, "hard seat inserts" aren't always needed, the OE induction hardening can usually be touched up, if you want them get them, just more $$, DON'T! over look the valve guides! they wear too!

You can check the main line to see if its straight with a straight edge, if it's straight why line hone it?, that just makes the timing chain loose!

Wrist pins are "press fit", the rods are heated to expand them and the slipped together and then they shrink and grab the pin, this should be done at the machine shop.

The biggest thing is to GET IT CLEAN!!!!!!!! before you assemble it, if the machine shop says its clean, they are lying to you! CLEAN it and then CLEAN it and the CLEAN it again!

I'll probably come up with some more rants, but after assembling several hundred engines it's like taking a leak, you just go and do it without thinking about it!

All of these questions are great!, better to ask and be called a dork then actually screw it up! and actually be a dip! every one started some where!
Measure twice cut once, lefty loosy righty tighty!

[Muad'Dib]

Thanks for the info IH .. one thing that i would like to touch on though is what you said about the fasteners. Its my understanding that the I6 does have one area that needs special fasteners.. and thats the head bolts. IIRC, they are TTY and do stretch. Its stated to only re-use once, and then replace. Ive read this in FSM's and online (mainly NAXJA). Its also interesting how you feel about the ROD bolts. Everyone opts for the ARP's it seems, This is really the first time i have heard something negative. Is it really that much overkill?

[IH 392]

Its my understanding that the I6 does have one area that needs special fasteners.. and thats the head bolts. IIRC, they are TTY and do stretch. Its stated to only re-use once, and then replace. Ive read this in FSM's and online (mainly NAXJA). Its also interesting how you feel about the ROD bolts. Everyone opts for the ARP's it seems, This is really the first time i have heard something negative. Is it really that much overkill?

I've never seen this referred to for ANY AMC/Jeep straight six??, I've reused the head bolts more than once, as I said they would come with the gasket sets and also show me a printed torque sequence that shows how much to turn them to get them to "yield", EVERY torque to yield bolt I've installed torqued to a small FTLB and then turned a specified # of degrease.

I've only seen ONE OE rod bolt damaged (in any engine), it was bent from where the rod snapped off above the bolt on the opposite side and folded around and wadded up against the block! the rods always break between the beam and the bolt hole.

You can feel a bolt stretching, it should come up to a nice quick firm torque, if it keeps turning even if it gets somewhat firm something is giving, the threads or the bolt is stretching.
The rod and main bolt shouldn't turn once they reach the specified torque upon rechecking them (always go back and retorque all bolts!) the head bolts will as the gasket collapses, but should stop after three passes or so, each pass should turn less than the last.

If you want to replace all the bolts go head, I did in my AMC 360, but it's pumping out 520HP!

[dwg86]

I would say before buying pistons and bearings, have the block and crank checked. The stock bore might look good, but after checking it might have a taper and need bored. The same with the crank, you might think it should clean up at .010, but might take .020. Your machinist can tell you what size bearings and pistons you need to buy.

[SilverXJ]

I've never seen this referred to for ANY AMC/Jeep straight six??, I've reused the head bolts more than once, as I said they would come with the gasket sets and also show me a printed torque sequence that shows how much to turn them to get them to "yield", EVERY torque to yield bolt I've installed torqued to a small FTLB and then turned a specified # of degrease.

I've never heard it any other way. The FSM states that the head bolts can only be used twice. This has been true on all the 4.0s. As for it being necessary I don't know. I've never heard anyone treating them like a true torque to yield application, they just get torqued down to 110ft lbs (or 100 for #11).

[RAPTORFAN85]

updated again

ALL PRICES ARE ESTIMATES!
I havn't had all these things done myself but I think I am pretty close on prices. If anyone has had somthing done and my prices are off let me know!!!

Block:
1. hot tank or oven bake. (cleaning) $75 to clean, shot blast, and mag block
2. shot blast.
3. magnaflux. (check for cracks)
4. line hone the main bearing bores if needed. ( I would recommend this for bearing clearance) $150
5. bore and hone to desired size. (I.E. over .030) $250
6. check deck for flatness if not milling, if milling tell them how much. (I.E. have .030 decked off.) $75
7. Install cam bearings. $25-$30

additional info:
Hot tanking the block is a better option for cleaning. Not all shops have a hot tank but most have a large oven they "cook" the parts in to burn off any grease, paint, oils, etc...
The shot blasting is to finish cleaning and literally blast away any remaining debris.
Magnafluxing the block is a good idea if the block is not familiar to you, also any engine that is suspect to have cracks should be mag'ed.
Line honing the main bearing bores will ensure that all the bearing journals line up and have adequate bearing clearance. Without adequate clearance the bearings could be tight and burn up. Not everyone thinks this is necessary but is good insurance.
The cam bearings are press fit and need to be installed in a certain order by size (smallest in the rear, largest in the front)

Crank:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty. $25
2. grind mains and rods to desired size, or offset grind if desired. $125
2a. Chamfer oil holes if desired. (better oiling) $25
3. spin balance. (optional) $50

additional info:
chamfering the oil holes isn't necessary but will allow better oil flow and volume threw the holes.
Balancing is also not necessary but recommended. The cranks come some what balanced from the factory but can be made closer.

rods:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty. $25
2. shot peen if desired. (for strength) $30
3. check for straightness. $15
4. install rod bolts if desired. $25
5. resize bearing journals. $125
6. weight balance. $20
7. install pistons. $50

additional info:
Shot peening is not necessary but recommended. It will strengthen the rods by removing any stress in the metal, essentially returning it to an almost new state.
ARP rod bolts are recommended insurance for a stroker. They are a press fit and should be installed with proper tools by a machinist.
Resizing the bearing journals should be done after rod bolts are installed, the pressing of the bolts can distort the metal making the bearings tight and burning them up. It's a good idea to have them checked even if you don't install new bolts.
All the rods should be weight matched. Also have the pistons weight matched to the rods to try and get the rod/piston assemblies all as close as possible to help with internal balancing.
Stock jeep pistons are press fit. If done incorrectly You can break a piston or warp the rod.

Head:
1. hot tank or oven bake if dirty and shot blast. $30
2. magnaflux head. (check for cracks) $15
3. port and polish. (optional performance upgrade) $600-$800 for pro, $25 for the Standard Abrasives kit and about 20 hours to do it yourself.
4. valve job. $150
4A. Install new seats if needed. $100 (for 12 seats)
5. check for flatness. $15
6. mill head if desired. (I.E. mill .010 off) $40
7. assemble with new springs, retainers, and keepers. $50

additional info:
I would mag any head that is not new. It's not worth it to have money put into a head if it's cracked and only have problems down the road. Cheap insurance.
Porting and polishing will give good gains to a stroker. To have a pro do it will be big money but you will get the best possible job. It can be don by a DIY'er but if you screw up your head you can kill the power rather then help, thus making your head a boat anchor.
Most heads will benefit from a new valve job. Three angle jobs seem to be the new norm. I have seen five angle jobs but think that it may be overkill for a jeep. A new valve job is almost a must after a port and polish, especially if done at home. Also the three angle job will increase the flow of the head.
Assembling the head requires special tools like a spring compressor. if you don't have the right tools have the machinist do it. Usually only a small assembly fee around $50

[Muad'Dib]

Thanks again RAPTORFAN!! its great.

I didnt see anything mentioned about Pressure testing .. why is that?