build issues

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build issues

Postby 4wdparakeet » April 6th, 2009, 11:45 pm

My stroker build is starting with an 89 cherokee. I'm using the 89 block and was looking for a 91-95 motor to swap everything from the head up. I found a "92" motor but after getting it home and getting it torn apart, looked and the casting number and it was the 0630. According to the FAQ's that means it's a 96-98. It has the throttle cable bracket, that sits above the runners. That makes the cable come in from pass to drivers. Would it be as simple as new throttle cable and fuel line.

I'm honestly thinking about scraping this part of the build as I do this and still have to get the adaptor from Hesco for 125 bucks. How much am I really going to loose if I run the 89 head and intake. I know I know do it right do it once but I'm way over budget and need to get it done.


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Re: build issues

Postby Plechtan » April 7th, 2009, 5:48 am

I think you can use the later TPS, just cut off your plug and splice on the later plug. You may need a little work with a multimeter to make sure the pins are in the right place.
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Re: build issues

Postby Muad'Dib » April 7th, 2009, 8:42 am

4wdparakeet wrote:My stroker build is starting with an 89 cherokee. I'm using the 89 block and was looking for a 91-95 motor to swap everything from the head up. I found a "92" motor but after getting it home and getting it torn apart, looked and the casting number and it was the 0630. According to the FAQ's that means it's a 96-98. It has the throttle cable bracket, that sits above the runners. That makes the cable come in from pass to drivers. Would it be as simple as new throttle cable and fuel line.

I'm honestly thinking about scraping this part of the build as I do this and still have to get the adaptor from Hesco for 125 bucks. How much am I really going to loose if I run the 89 head and intake. I know I know do it right do it once but I'm way over budget and need to get it done.


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Unless you do ALOT! of work to the renix head, than your going to loose alot of power there. You will really want to use a 7120 head. You can get away with the RENIX head for now if you just cant wait and have to get it done... but plan on swapping it out later when time and money allow.

In order to use the later model head, you must grab the throttle cable, TV cable, and if you want, the fuel lines from the donor vehicle. You can easily make the fuel lines longer yourself, but its an option to just grab the fuel lines from the donor vehicle and snap it in. Your also going to use all the RENIX sensors. The only one that needs adapting is the TPS.. and you already know about that.

Good luck!

Plechtan wrote:I think you can use the later TPS, just cut off your plug and splice on the later plug. You may need a little work with a multimeter to make sure the pins are in the right place.


I dont think thats possible. Its my understanding the the TPS for the RENIX reads differently than later models (or i guess the better thing to say is the ECU reads what the TPS gives it differently). IIRC, its backwards. Thats probaly why no one has just easily spliced in a later model TPS .. its just plain doesnt work that way. You either have to buy the adapter, or adapt the TPS yourself. I would opt for the adapter. Less likely to screw up your TPS, and its a one time deal. If you adapt the TPS (i believe you cut the tab off or something like that) then you have to do it each and every time you replace a bad / faulty tps.
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Re: build issues

Postby Plechtan » April 7th, 2009, 10:07 am

Here is how the TPS works, It is just like any other TPS. The value of the resistor is generally not important, because they are only looking at the voltage. When the wiper is towards the 5 volt side, you have 5 volts, when it is towards the ground side than it is ov if it is in between it reads some voltage between 5V and Ov.

So long as when you are at idle you have the wiper to the proper end of the pot (0V or 5v, I am not sure which) then it should work ok. The only other issue would be if the pot is non linier. You can tell be measuring the resistance from one end to the wiper, check 0 deg, 22 deg, 45 deg 77 deg and 90 deg. The values should increase 25% each time. You can check the old tps vs the new TPS. I am suer someone on the board has both lying around and can check for you..


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Re: build issues

Postby Muad'Dib » April 7th, 2009, 10:22 am

What your saying is true, however, what i was saying from what i have heard and read is that the later models are backwards. So instead of being 0v for example at one end of the pot, the later tps would be 5v in the same position .. and vise versa. This is just using your example. I think its more complicated than that. Ill have to dig up where i found this information, but i was pretty sure that it was an ECU problem and not a TPS problem. Something like the RENIX TPS sends data back to the ECU in a different way.

Im sure many people would love to use a later model TPS with the RENIX system when they do a head swap (save that 125 bucks!)... but its never been done (or at least never documented).. that tells me that there has to be some logic as to why you must use the RENIX TPS.

Im off to search NAXJA for some hard evidence.
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Re: build issues

Postby Plechtan » April 7th, 2009, 10:29 am

If it is backwards, switch the wires ! I don't have both sensors, but i think this issue could be resolved in 10 minutes if sombody had both sensors and an ohm meter.
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Re: build issues

Postby Muad'Dib » April 7th, 2009, 10:36 am

Plechtan wrote:If it is backwards, switch the wires ! I don't have both sensors, but i think this issue could be resolved in 10 minutes if sombody had both sensors and an ohm meter.


I was thinking about that too .. and if so darn simple why hasnt someone done it!!! :P


**EDIT**

Another thought i just had was that even after flipping the wires (if thats even what needs to be done) the pots range is different from the RENIX. Renix wants what .8v when the throttle plate is closed. This has to be pretty close or else there are alot of problems. I doubt that you could adjust the HO TPS when the throttle plate is closed to the required voltage that the RENIX ECU needs to see. You might be able to get it right... but i doubt you would without a custom mount anyway.
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Re: build issues

Postby Muad'Dib » April 7th, 2009, 11:49 am

Heres one: (Forgot about the tranny side of the TPS also!)

5-90 wrote:As I recall, the OBD-I TCU gets its throttle information from the ECU (rather than on its own, as per RENIX.) Thus, the "single-output" TPS.

The RENIX TPS is two units in one casting - working in opposite directions. The ECU side goes from high resistance to low, and the TCU side from low to high (I think - I may have that reversed.) I've not compares OBD-I/II TPS function to RENIX to figure out if they reversed the engine side to keep up with the TCU, or if the ECU sends a separate output, so I can't help you much there.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=243529158&postcount=15
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Re: build issues

Postby Plechtan » April 7th, 2009, 2:55 pm

I still think you could make it work, you may have to put a fixed resistor in serries with the power or ground side, but i think you could make it work for a lot less than $125.00

Here is what you would have to do, measure the +5 and 0 v terminals of the renix sensor with the ohm meter, say you get 1,000 ohms. so 5v gets divided by 1,000 ohms = 200 ohms per volt. so with the throttle closed if you read .8 v that would be ( 200 x .8 =) 160 ohms . to prove it you could measure from the 0v side to the wiper ( with the throttle closed) and you should measure about 160 ohms. You would have to rescale thes numbers based on your actual readings.

Now if you take the ODB1 throttle body and measure between the 5V and 0v terminals, and say you get 2,500 ohms. So 500 ohms per volt. so with the throttle closed you would want to see ( 500 x .8=) 400 ohms. If you got something else, then you should try and adjust the TPS. If you run out of adjustment, than add a 500 ohm resistor to the 0V side of the sensor. so now we have 3000 ohms total from 5V to OV and 600 ohms per volt. so 600 x .8 = 480 ohms. so now adjust the sensor so you get 480 ohms with the throttle plate closed. Again adjust the scaling on actual readings.

If sombody measures the sensors i will redo the math.
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Re: build issues

Postby Plechtan » April 7th, 2009, 2:59 pm

The RENIX TPS is two units in one casting - working in opposite directions. The ECU side goes from high resistance to low, and the TCU side from low to high (I think - I may have that reversed.) I've not compares OBD-I/II TPS function to RENIX to figure out if they reversed the engine side to keep up with the TCU, or if the ECU sends a separate output, so I can't help you much there.


I have a 5 speed so i didn't even think of the TCU
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Re: build issues

Postby Muad'Dib » April 7th, 2009, 3:06 pm

If money is also the issue, than you can adapt the renix TPS itself to mate with the shaft on the HO TB. This can be done on the cheap for about 8 bucks max. However it also requires time, and precision... plus as i said earlier you have to do it multiple times to each TPS you ever need to use.

Hell maybe someday someone will by that adapter from HESCO (i will when i do my build), and then share the specs of it. Then we could possibly make one or have someone like oletshot make one for way way less.
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Re: build issues

Postby SilverXJ » April 7th, 2009, 3:33 pm

For the OBD II TPS (probably OBD I as well) this is how it works:

It has 3 wires: 5 volt input form the PCM, ground, and output to the PCM. At closed throttle it outputs ~ .26 volts to 4.49 volts at WOT. Switching the + and - wires around won't reverse its output.
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Re: build issues

Postby 4wdparakeet » April 7th, 2009, 10:41 pm

In order to use the later model head, you must grab the throttle cable, TV cable...


What is the tv cable. I have been stewing about this since I read it. And once you tell me I'm going to kick myself in junk but I'm drawing a blank on that.


And honestly I will be getting the Hesco part just because of ease of installation.


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Re: build issues

Postby yuppiexj » April 8th, 2009, 3:55 am

4wdparakeet wrote:What is the tv cable.

It sets the line pressure in the transmission, firmer shifts with more throttle (less slipping too).

unlike GM and Ford it has nothing to do with causing downshifts, just the line pressure.
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Re: build issues

Postby 4wdparakeet » April 9th, 2009, 1:57 pm

I have a manual. I guess I forgot to tell you guys that. So I will just need throttle cable and fuel rail return line. If that's the case I'm good to go.


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