Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

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Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 23rd, 2011, 4:33 am

Hello together.

I take the change and introduce myself here as well in this thread.
My name is Tobias (32yo) and I am an german construction engineer and live since several years in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the united arabic emirates. 4x4 are not very common in germany due to many points. Offroading is normally not allowed and also not many placed to go. Roads & fences are every where. Also the technical check up, which you need every 2 years for registration are ... quite german like.... very precise and if you don't have papers and documents with tests, protocols and statements, showing that the modification is 100% tested, you won't get an approval. And we don't talk about strengths-test of material etc. they would be understandable, no pedestrian safety (study about impact to pedestrian while hit from off-road bumper) and things like that. Extreme modding in not possible in Germany. Not with jeeps at least. Thats why I am normally more into german race cars and mainly in to the 2,0L turbocharged. I love that engine.
Here my actual project from 2009 Audi TT Roadster with original 200 HP. The engine is build up to 340HP in several stages. Quattro DSG Transmission and till now street legal. :mrgreen:

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Sorry for the long story, but it might help you understanding my ... lets call it "special" situation.
When I came to the emirates I discover my passion for off road driving. Nice guys here in our club http://www.ad4x4.com and after a few trips as passenger I rolled over in a Jeep and got addicted :D . First I had a Wrangler 1997 (I loved it but had to sell it, be course I left the contry for 1 year) then a JK 2009 hmm.. quit disappointed from the weak front axle and the engine is stabile but could have some more horses and torque as well. But lovely appearance and quit nice look. Nevertheless I needed a real offroad car and bought an 2001 XJ from an friend of mine. I really love that car. Rusty bucket and have sounds & vibrations from everywhere while driving but the performance in the desert is better then my JK.
Now I decided to do the 4,7L stroker on the 2001 XJ and I have many questions. I am really not very familiar with the jeeps and even with the american descriptions, brands and measurements (still have to convert all things in cm to understand) So don't be surpriced if I ask questions several times ;)
But If you want to know something about the 2,0l TFSI I am your man! :mrgreen:

That car I want to stroker

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My JK and XJ
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Here the actual specs from my XJ
- Cherokee sport 4,0 2001 american specs (imported to the emirates)
- 31" Cooper STT with no R&P and automatic transmission
- 4,5" Skyjack full lift kit
- k&N air intake

My planing is the 4,7L setup as mentioned here : http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/stroker.html

4.7L medium-buck stroker
Jeep 4.2L 3.895" stroke crank
Jeep 4.0L 6.125" rods (Sure the 4.0L rods?)
Keith-Black Silvolite UEM-IC944 +0.060" bore pistons
9.6:1 CR
CompCams 68-231-4 206/214 degree camshaft
CNC ported HO 1.91"/1.50" cylinder head (no idea what this means)
Mill block deck 0.020"
Mopar/Victor 0.043" head gasket (Is victor a brand?)
0.051" quench height
Flometrics F&B 68mm billet TB (can I also just bore the body to 65mm instand of buying a new one?)
Accel 26lb/hr injectors with adjustable FPR or MAP adjuster for '87-'95 engines, Accel 26lb/hr injectors with stock 49psi FPR for '96 and later engines.
271hp @ 4900rpm, 333lbft @ 3500rpm

I want to do most things myselfe. I have a shop for bore the block for the new pistoles and a good shop for assembling and adjusting the engine . I have a 2001 block with my casting # but no head till now.

Here are my questions ( wow really took a long time to reach that point :D ) :
1, Is the set up mentioned above ok and stabile for my 2001 XJ
2, Where can I order the parts. Best all in one place / website due to costly shipments to the emirates.
3, Except the parts mentioned above, I take al other engine parts as original Jeep parts or from Mopar. I talk about valves, Valve springs, bearings, gaskits, timing chain other belts, rockers etc.
4, Waterpump from Hesco or Flowkooler high performance pump or the standard pump?
5, Oilpump from Melling or the standard oilpump?
6, Do I need to install roller rockers? Is it difficult to fix them to the cylinder head myself?
7, What about extra cooling? In the emirates we have around 50 degree Celsius in the summer
8, I know that I need exactly my engine block but what about the head? Can this one be any from 99 till 2006?
9, I am planing as a later stage a soft NOS injection 50HP aprox. Do I need to adjust/change now something for this?
10, What I need to do on the head except regrinding the valve seat?

So, this would be enough for my first post :D

Regards

Tobias
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby SilverXJ » January 23rd, 2011, 6:23 am

cybersot wrote:4.7L medium-buck stroker
Jeep 4.2L 3.895" stroke crank
Jeep 4.0L 6.125" rods (Sure the 4.0L rods?)

Yes, you use the 4.0L rods with the Keith-Black IC944 pistons. I would recommend having ARP bolts installed and the rods resized.
Keith-Black Silvolite UEM-IC944 +0.060" bore pistons
9.6:1 CR
CompCams 68-231-4 206/214 degree camshaft
CNC ported HO 1.91"/1.50" cylinder head (no idea what this means)

It means that the head is ported on a CNC machine. IIRC Patriot has a head like that.
Mill block deck 0.020"
Mopar/Victor 0.043" head gasket (Is victor a brand?)

yes, its Victor Reinz
0.051" quench height
Flometrics F&B 68mm billet TB (can I also just bore the body to 65mm instand of buying a new one?)
I wouldn't go with a 68mm throttle body. It may be too larger and make teh throttle too touchy. I would have youre bored to 63mm.
Accel 26lb/hr injectors with adjustable FPR or MAP adjuster for '87-'95 engines, Accel 26lb/hr injectors with stock 49psi FPR for '96 and later engines.
271hp @ 4900rpm, 333lbft @ 3500rpm

I want to do most things myselfe. I have a shop for bore the block for the new pistoles and a good shop for assembling and adjusting the engine . I have a 2001 block with my casting # but no head till now.

Here are my questions ( wow really took a long time to reach that point :D ) :
1, Is the set up mentioned above ok and stabile for my 2001 XJ

Should be.
2, Where can I order the parts. Best all in one place / website due to costly shipments to the emirates.

I have no idea on this but Cheromaniac on here is in the UAE so he might have some idea.
3, Except the parts mentioned above, I take al other engine parts as original Jeep parts or from Mopar. I talk about valves, Valve springs, bearings, gaskits, timing chain other belts, rockers etc.

The only things I would recommend you buy directly from Mopar are the Mopar Performance springs. You will also need the cam bolt, pin spring and washer to use that cam. You will most likely be able to reuse the valves in the head you use. For bearings I recommend Clevite. Timing set I recommend JP Performance or Cloyes. If you don't want to use the stock rockers you have a few options Yella Terra, Harland Sharp, and one other i can't remember at the moment.
4, Waterpump from Hesco or Flowkooler high performance pump or the standard pump?

Hesco. FLow cooler is nothign but a rebuilt stock pump with a plate riveted on the back.
5, Oilpump from Melling or the standard oilpump?

Melling sells a standard flow and a high volume pump. Do research and decide for your self. Some people run a HV some run a regular. If you do get the HV it would best to make a modification to squirt oil to the cam gear.
6, Do I need to install roller rockers? Is it difficult to fix them to the cylinder head myself?
Nope. Its easy. You may need to measure and get new push rods. But its mostly a bolt on affair. Most adjustable will require a taller valve cover or a valve cover and thermostat housing spacer.
7, What about extra cooling? In the emirates we have around 50 degree Celsius in the summer

I would go with maybe a CFS 2 row radiator or a FFdynamics aluminum unit. High flow water pump as you stated, high flow t-stat housing and a 195* t-stat. If you really much put a cooler tstat in as some people want to don't go lower than 185*.
8, I know that I need exactly my engine block but what about the head? Can this one be any from 99 till 2006?

You will need an XJ engine block. Do not get a TJ (wrangler) 00+ or a WJ (Grand Cherokee) block. The head I would get an older head with a 0630 or 7120 casting number. However you will have to get an aftermarket header and fab some brackets to hold the coil rail. You can still use a 0331 head but It would have to be a 03+ head with "TUPY" on the casting. Or there are a few companies that have strengthened the 0331 head such as Alabama Cylinder head. 99-02 0331 heads are prone to cracking.
9, I am planing as a later stage a soft NOS injection 50HP aprox. Do I need to adjust/change now something for this?

The nitrous kit should have provisions for adding extra fuel. I would also recommend a wide band O2 sensor and gauge to monitor your Air fuel ratio. With the stroker this would also be good.
10, What I need to do on the head except regrinding the valve seat?

Polish and port if you can do it or afford to have someone else do it. As mentioned there is Patriot Performance's CNC head and there is also Hesco's Aluminum head. Have it checked for cracks. I would get a 3 angle valve job with the valve back cut 30-32*. And have it checked for flatness.
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cheromaniac » January 23rd, 2011, 6:41 am

Hi Tobias. I live 160km away from you in Al Ain and I also post as DinoStroker in the AD4x4 site. The 4.7L stroker recipe you found is from my site. To answer some of your questions:

1. Jeep 4.0L 6.125" rods (Sure the 4.0L rods?): Yes I'm sure about them. Use those rods with the Keith Black IC944 pistons.
2. CNC ported HO 1.91"/1.50" cylinder head (no idea what this means): Never mind. You're in the UAE so unless you can port the head yourself, don't bother. Just reuse your stock '01 head (if you have it) or use a 2002-2006 Wrangler 4.0 head with TUPY stamped on the top.
3. Mopar/Victor 0.043" head gasket (Is victor a brand?): Victor-Reinz manufacture engine gaskets and you can buy both the upper and lower gasket sets locally.
4. Flometrics F&B 68mm billet TB (can I also just bore the body to 65mm instand of buying a new one?): Just bore your existing TB to 62mm.

Here are my questions ( wow really took a long time to reach that point ) :
1, Is the set up mentioned above ok and stable for my 2001 XJ. Yes.
2, Where can I order the parts. Best all in one place / website due to costly shipments to the emirates.

Crankshaft: Check in ebay. Type AMC Jeep 258 crankshaft in search box.
Pistons: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC944-060/
Camshaft: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-68-231-4/
Valve springs: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-5249464/
Valve spring retainers: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-4452032/
Valve keepers: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-4529218/
Injectors: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACC-150824/


3, Except the parts mentioned above, I take al other engine parts as original Jeep parts or from Mopar. I talk about valves, Valve springs, bearings, gaskits, timing chain other belts, rockers etc.

You can buy rod/main/cam bearings, valves, upper/lower gasket sets, timing set, oil pump, and lifters from any Jeep parts shop in Mussaffah.

4, Waterpump from Hesco or Flowkooler high performance pump or the standard pump?

Flowkooler water pump: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BRA-1747/
JET 180* thermostat: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/JET-10170/


5, Oilpump from Melling or the standard oilpump?

Standard oil pump.

6, Do I need to install roller rockers? Is it difficult to fix them to the cylinder head myself?

With the higher valve lift and faster opening ramp rate of a performance camshaft, roller rockers are preferable for valvetrain stability and longer life. They're very easy to install and you can get these:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CSP-S40196/


7, What about extra cooling? In the emirates we have around 50 degree Celsius in the summer.

The stock XJ radiator will do fine. That's what I'm using and my engine runs nice and cool. Right now my temp. gauge stays just above the 1/4 mark. In the middle of summer with the AC on constantly, the highest it'll go is halfway.

8, I know that I need exactly my engine block but what about the head? Can this one be any from 99 till 2006?

Since your XJ is a 2001 model with coil-on-plug ignition, I suggest you go for a 2002-2006 head from a Wrangler 4.0. Look for one that has TUPY stamped on the top. These are the improved castings.

9, I am planing as a later stage a soft NOS injection 50HP aprox. Do I need to adjust/change now something for this?

No. The stock fuel pump will do fine. After you've installed the stroker engine and finished breaking it in, you'll probably need to buy a Unichip piggyback computer and have it programmed while running the Jeep on the dyno. The local agents for the Unichip who also have their own dyno are MOCA Tel: +971 4 2855313, mogroup@emirates.net.ae Dubai, UAE. That's where I had my Jeep dyno'd. Give them a call. I think they also have a shop in Mussaffah.

10, What I need to do on the head except regrinding the valve seat?

Have it skimmed for flatness.
1992 XJ 4.6L "Poor Man's" Stroker
202rwhp @ 4700rpm (248bhp)
258rwtq @ 3400rpm (311lbft)
1/4 mile: 14.63 @ 94.4, 3450lb curb
Stroker build-up, Stroker "recipes"
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 23rd, 2011, 8:07 am

Wow world is quite small!!

I registered on an US forum and found Dino / Cheromaniac from Al Ain. I heard already from your knowledge about strokers. Thanks allot, your post already helped me much. hope you don't mint if come back to you with one or the other question.

Is there any other source then e-bay for the 258 crank shaft?

Regards

Tobias

BTW: Chuck is a friend of mine and his stroker still runs fine.
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 23rd, 2011, 10:00 am

A few more questions. :D

Valve springs are sold per piece. I need 12 piece and all the same right?
Same for spring retainer. 12 piece
Spring keeper are sold as set of 8. still need 12 piece right?

Strange that "only" the spring accessories are already 290 bucks :huh:
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cheromaniac » January 23rd, 2011, 10:20 am

cybersot wrote:A few more questions. :D

Valve springs are sold per piece. I need 12 piece and all the same right?
Same for spring retainer. 12 piece
Spring keeper are sold as set of 8. still need 12 piece right?


Yes to all three. BTW, you can call me on my mobile (0508328857). Give my regards to Uwe if you see him.
Small world indeed! :lol:
1992 XJ 4.6L "Poor Man's" Stroker
202rwhp @ 4700rpm (248bhp)
258rwtq @ 3400rpm (311lbft)
1/4 mile: 14.63 @ 94.4, 3450lb curb
Stroker build-up, Stroker "recipes"
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 24th, 2011, 12:43 am

Can somebody check please this e-bay offer?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... _500wt_722

Heard several time something about 2" and 2,5" snouts. Which one do I need?
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cheromaniac » January 24th, 2011, 2:53 am

Go for it. Even though it's an '81-'86 258 crankshaft (3235477) with the longer 2.5" snout, you can still buy it. All you'll need to do is get an old scrap harmonic balancer from a 4.0L engine, take it to a lathe shop, and have a 1.0cm thick slice cut off from the rearmost part. You can use that as a spacer in front of the new harmonic balancer and it'll have its own keyway to make installation easy.
By the way, I forgot to mention that you'll need new connecting rod bolts and you can get those from, you've guessed it, Summit Racing:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-112-6001/
1992 XJ 4.6L "Poor Man's" Stroker
202rwhp @ 4700rpm (248bhp)
258rwtq @ 3400rpm (311lbft)
1/4 mile: 14.63 @ 94.4, 3450lb curb
Stroker build-up, Stroker "recipes"
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 24th, 2011, 8:06 am

Cheromaniac wrote:Go for it. Even though it's an '81-'86 258 crankshaft (3235477) with the longer 2.5" snout, you can still buy it. All you'll need to do is get an old scrap harmonic balancer from a 4.0L engine, take it to a lathe shop, and have a 1.0cm thick slice cut off from the rearmost part. You can use that as a spacer in front of the new harmonic balancer and it'll have its own keyway to make installation easy.
By the way, I forgot to mention that you'll need new connecting rod bolts and you can get those from, you've guessed it, Summit Racing:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-112-6001/


Ok, rod bolts add to my wish list.

About the crankshaft, which would be the best for my 2001 4.7L project? Also the e-bay seller asked me about weights and it seams he has as well several cranks for sale.
So here a few more questions.

1,Which casting nr would be bast and which weights do I need?
Here the mail from the seller!

Hi, the crankshafts are 100% original. But do you want 4,6,8 or 12 weight. Which is your choice. The prices and shipping costs are different for all crankshafts. Please let me know. Thanks

2, The bearing from the block to the 258 crankshaft are the stock 242 bearings for the 4.0L?

3, The bearing between crank shaft and my stock 242 rod is the stock 242 bearing?

Thanks for you help

Tobias
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cheromaniac » January 24th, 2011, 10:29 am

The 258 crankshafts come either with 12 counterweights ('72-'80) or with 4 counterweights ('81-'90). Any will do. Obviously the 20lb lighter 4cwt cranks will cost less to ship and if you use an '87-'90 short snout crank, you won't need a spacer in front of the HB either but these cranks are harder to find.
The main bearings you need are for the 4.0 HO block and the Clevites carry part no. MS-1947P.
The rod bearings are the same for both the 258 rods and the 4.0 rods of all years and the Clevite part nos. for those are CB-960P.
1992 XJ 4.6L "Poor Man's" Stroker
202rwhp @ 4700rpm (248bhp)
258rwtq @ 3400rpm (311lbft)
1/4 mile: 14.63 @ 94.4, 3450lb curb
Stroker build-up, Stroker "recipes"
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 25th, 2011, 1:09 am

Thanks Cheromaniac realy helped a lot

Finaly here is my part list. It is importent for me to have this complete. I don't want to run around later and in the wurst case, order from US and wait 6 weeks.

Please check and comment if you find something strange / incorrect etc.

Image

Image

Parts List

Needed to Order in the USA:

6 Pistons: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC944-060/
Keith Black/KB Pistons IC944-060

1 Camshaft: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-68-231-4/
COMP Cams 68-231-4

12 Valve springs: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-5249464/
Mopar Performance P5249464

12 Valve spring retainers: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-4452032/
Mopar Performance P4452032

12 Valve keepers: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-4529218/
Mopar Performance P4529218

6 Injectors: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACC-150824/
ACCEL 150824 - ACCEL Fuel Injectors

1 Flowkooler water pump: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BRA-1747/
FlowKooler 1747

1 JET 180* thermostat: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/JET-10170/
JET Performance 10170

12 Roller Rockers. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CSP-S40196/
Harland Sharp S40196

12 connecting rod bolts http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-112-6001/
ARP 112-6001 - ARP High Performance Connecting Rod Bolt Kits

And little extra power 
1Nitrous Injection Kit 50 HP http://www.summitracing.com/parts/VNM-N48-137/
VENOM High Performance N48-137

Maybe JET Timing chain and Stockets?

To get here from UAE:

- Block 2000/2001 Casting No. 53010449AA
- Cylinder head from 2002/2006 Wrangler with TUPY stamp, or 2000/2001 with casting # 0331

For the cylinder head (all from Mopar):
1) 6 VALVE, Intake
2) 6 SEAL, Valve Guide intake
3) 6 VALVE, Exhaust
4) 6 SEAL, Valve Guide exhaust
5) !!No PIVOT, for the Rocker Arm and NO BRIDGE, for the Rocker Arm!!
6) 12 Tappet, Valve
7) 12 Pushrods, Valve (standard 4,0L?)
8) 1 Gasket, Valve Cover
9) 1 Gasket, Cylinder Head

For crank and Pistons (all from Mopar):
10) 12 Main Bearing, Crankshaft (12 pieces each half round) Picture 1
11) 1 Thrust Bearing,Crankshaft
12) 12 Bearing, Connecting Rod & 6 Rods (12 pieces each half round)
13) Set of 5 Bearing, Camshaft (still for the stock 4.0L?)
14) 1Gasket, Manifold
15) 1 GEAR, Crankshaft
16) 1 SLINGER, Oil Slinger next to Gear
17) 1Bearing, Crankshaft Pilot
18) ?? Maybe 1 timing chain and 2 sprockets??
19) 1 Gasket & Seal Kit, Timing

Block and accessories (all from Mopar)::
20) 1Gasket Set, Oil Pan
21) 1Filter, Engine Oil
22) 1Oilpump

If everything is fine, I am going to order by this Thursday.

Any Idea Summit Racing gives dicount in orders above 3000$ or maybe forum discount for http://www.Jeepstroker.com?

Thanks for your good and helpfull advices!!! :cheers:
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby SilverXJ » January 25th, 2011, 4:31 am

Cybershot wrote:- Cylinder head from 2002/2006 Wrangler with TUPY stamp, or 2000/2001 with casting # 0331

As I said earlier you do not want the 99-2002 head.
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 25th, 2011, 5:02 am

SilverXJ wrote:
Cybershot wrote:- Cylinder head from 2002/2006 Wrangler with TUPY stamp, or 2000/2001 with casting # 0331

As I said earlier you do not want the 99-2002 head.

Yes I know the 0331 is a weak one, but If I don't find one from 2002 to 2006 then I have no other chance to go for the 0331 type (99-2001) Or not?

What do you say about the other parts listed, seams to be correct and complete?
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cheromaniac » January 25th, 2011, 7:43 am

Tobias,
I forgot to mention the piston rings. You can buy those with the Keith Black pistons as a kit:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC944KTM-060/

For cylinder heads either get a 2002+ head with TUPY stamped on the top, or get a '96-'99 head with casting no. 0630. Avoid the crack-prone '00-'01 heads.
For blocks, any year will do but the '96+ blocks come with a main bearing cap girdle and studs so they're slightly better.
Basically all you need to buy from the junkyard is the 4.0L block, head, oil pan (any), timing cover (any), valve cover (any), and a camshaft bolt from a '98 or earlier model that has a hole in the middle with a spring, thrust pin, and washer. You'll be replacing all the internal engine parts anyway so there's no need to spend more money to buy a complete engine.
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Re: Phase I: planning an 4,7L in the United Emirates

Postby Cybershot » January 25th, 2011, 8:40 am

Thanks, Will put the rings to my list.

Today I wanted to kill my junk yard guy. I wanted to pick up my 2001 block and he sold it 2 day before, even knowing that I wanted it and he had my mobile nr. grrr..... :smack:
Starting back from zero :shock:

Found that block which has my casting nr but without the AA

My casting nr is 53010449 AA ( the block which I wanted before had exactly this.)

The one I found just today has only the correct Nr without the AA (see pic)

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